Is it "wrong" to not like other systems?

[Dannyalcatraz]

As long as you're not insulting about it, your opinion of game systems is as valid as anyone else's, except those who treat systems like religions. "THIS is the ONE, TRUE RPG system!" is idiotic at best.

Personally, my favorite system is HERO, but I'm also the first to admit its not perfect- it takes a LOT of time to design a PC or run certain combats. Still, its unequalled in flexibility of modelling PC types, and its ideal for genre-mixing or genre-crossing.

Mutants & Mastermind is, to me, the bridge between D20 and HERO (with a bit of Marvel thrown in). As such, its running a close second to HERO on my list.

D20 is a great system, and is my 3rd favorite, all time (I also enjoyed 1st and 2nd as well). Flexible, clear...a lot of good thinking went into it. My main problem with it is it has GURPS-itis: everyone is making a D20 version of their game (good or bad) and as such, D20 games are eating up shelf space that (IMHO) should go to far better games. I initially thought D20 proliferation would make it easier for me to get my stick-in-the-mud players to explore alternative genres, but they aren't just D20 snobs, they're D&D snobs. (When I say "snob" here, I must explain that, in all fairness, I'm also including players who don't have much free time to learn new systems.)

(Personal honorable mentions to Godlike, Space 1889, Deadlands, Traveller, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Talisantha, Paranoia, Alternity, Universe, RIFTS and Spaceship Zero for either good systems or innovative settings or both...)

GURPS, however doesn't really stand up to its name. I used to game with some guys who were playtesters for SJG, so I played a LOT of GURPS- enough to buy a book for my own convenience. Because of that, I noticed the system was inconsistent across certain settings or genres, something I found quite dissapointing.

 

[Desdichado]

I always wonder at this point... what is the d20 system?

I don't think there is any book or comprehensive collection of data, which could be labeled that, or is there?

Anyways, I don't see d20 as a generic system. d20 is more like a huge collection of similar games, or something like that.

GURPS and HERO are generic game systems. One book and you can play virtually *everything* with it.

There is no such thing for the d20 system AFAIK, or is there?

The two SRD's are, technically. Of course, there are d20 games, and "technically OGL but might as well be d20" games like Conan or M&M or Blue Rose that differ substantially from the SRD, and expand it in new and unexpected directions, but the SRDs are still the benchmarks and the official incarnations of the system, and everything else is technically "add on."

Besides, even if there wasn't, why would that preclude d20 from being a system?

 

[diaglo]

Besides, even if there wasn't, why would that preclude d20 from being a system?

d02 is a system.

sometimes systems need to be purged cuz they are full of feces.

which i believe is the case with d02 Deadlands.

 

[Belen]

Hmmm ... thank your illustrating my point perfectly. (Pity the "rolling eyes" smily-thing is not available.)

You know, I have always supported your positions about previous positions of D&D, but suddenly I see why other tend to disagree with you so strongly. It was not until this post that I realized you really do hate d20.

And if you had not cleverly chosen what to quote from my post, you will see that I did not say that other systems are bad, just that they are designed with a style molded to fit the genre or setting with which they were created.

The core d20 mechanics can be used to fill a variety of genres, tropes, and settings. It mimics the style of the large majority of gamers allowing them to branch out into other types of games without beggaring themselves on new books and learning new systems. I have rarely seen groups that would like to spend cash on a variety of different system books just because one or two people want to try a new set of rules.

Feel free to enjoy the games that you want. No one is stopping you. No one who enjoys d20 is impeding your fun because they prefer to play d20 and if you do not like people who enjoy d20 and support it, then you can always hand with the elitist gamers on RPGnet.

 

[Thanee]

The two SRD's are, technically.

Yep, and those are hardly able to cover a wide range of games.

Of course, there are d20 games, and "technically OGL but might as well be d20" games like Conan or M&M or Blue Rose that differ substantially from the SRD, and expand it in new and unexpected directions, but the SRDs are still the benchmarks and the official incarnations of the system, and everything else is technically "add on."

Of course, I just wouldn't call the ability of a system to "drop 90+% of its content and recreate it" being able to handle that.

Every system can do that.

Besides, even if there wasn't, why would that preclude d20 from being a system?

It wouldn't, I just wonder what framework represents the d20 system.

So when someone says "the d20 system can handle this or that genre totally fine", then what is "the d20 system" in that context?

If it's the SRD (the fantasy one), then it can handle exactly one game: D&D.

There is absolutely nothing generic about it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Belen]

See, this is how trouble begins. It's in most gamers' best interest to check out other games for two reason.

And I own flavor books from other games. However, I play maybe twice a month. I had not the time nor inclination to "try" other systems just to be a well-rounded gamer. I have played both alternity and the earlier incarnations of D&D, Werewolf, Vampire, and the suckitude known as GURPS.

My preference is d20. I have run horror, scifi, historical, and fantasy games under this one system. It does everything I need, so why should I branch out and play other systems? Because gamer elites tell me I am not a "complete" gamers without fawning over the latest diceless blunder?

 

[Belen]

Those saying that preferring d20 primarily or exclusively makes one hidebound or uninformed are, IME/O, just looking for a way to make themselves feel superior, trying to reconcile their cognitive dissonance over the fact that a system that isn't their favorite is continuing to dominate the industry.

Agreed. They are the same people who always snubbed the old edtions of D&D because it makes them feel better to be in a small click within a small group. These are the same type of people who play certain games because "it keeps the stupid people from playing."

They are the gamer "elites" who are just better than us dumb folk.

 

[Belen]

Of course, I just wouldn't call the ability of a system to "drop 90+% of its content and recreate it" being able to handle that.

Oh, come on, Thanee. Those systems do not drop 90% of d20. In many cases, the only difference is character creation, experience generation, or combat style. The main strength is that someone who plays D&D 3e can easily pick up Blue Rose or M&M and play a game quickly. The basics: saves, feats, skills, DCs, and d20 mechanic are identical.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Oh, come on, Thanee. Those systems do not drop 90% of d20.

Exactly. I've found that when hyperbole is used to bolster a point, the point is usually not very sound.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

d20 is great, especially D&D (and a few others), but I've yet to see a d20 game, which handles any non-heroic genre in a (to me) sufficient way, that is comparable to some of the other game systems out there.

I'm not sure what is meant by "non-heroic." Unless you're playing Papers & Paychecks, pretty much any RPG can be defined as "heroic."

"Realistic" is another term I often see which doesn't quite make sense to me, at least as far as games are concerned. On one hand, I understand that "realistic" can mean that the game models things from the real world in a way which seems intuitively correct, but on the other hand "realistic" often means a game in which characters are relatively helpless and combat is very deadly. The latter just doesn't seem like much fun - after all, I game to get away from real life for a while. The older I get, the less appeal "realism" in games has for me; if I want that, I'll just live my life.