Level Up (A5E) Is Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition compatible with D&D 5E?

[Faolyn]

Absolutely right, which is why it is compatible with "adventures" despite being a different system. It is not compatible with D&D classes, or D&D rules, because it is a different rule system that overwrites D&D.

We already know the classes are different, since that's a major point of the game.

But I'd think you'd have to go through an adventure and find the places where the games are actually incompatible to the point that an A5e character couldn't play in it without making huge changes.

Like, you mention Press the Attack/Fall Back--but that's just a combat action. That's not going to affect the adventure, just the combat. You could let an o5e PC use that without problem, just like you could let them use Sprint.

 

[Rant]

We already know the classes are different, since that's a major point of the game.

But I'd think you'd have to go through an adventure and find the places where the games are actually incompatible to the point that an A5e character couldn't play in it without making huge changes.

Like, you mention Press the Attack/Fall Back--but that's just a combat action. That's not going to affect the adventure, just the combat. You could let an o5e PC use that without problem, just like you could let them use Sprint.

This is becoming a bit circular, but that does not address the things Level Up "takes away" from O5E builds. The original Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, and Polearm Master are key for many martial builds in O5E. Many Wizards rely on O5E Counterspell. D&D classes no longer have access to rules elements they relied on, while Level Up classes are built with those rule changes in mind.

They are different rule sets, and yes, Level Up can be used for D&D adventures, but it cannot be used alongside "D&D characters," since D&D characters rely on "D&D rules" and "D&D feats" and "D&D spells." Level Up has Level Up rules, Level Up feats, and Level Up spells. They are different. Different games, that work with the same adventures, yes, but not alongside the classes and rules from other games.

 

[Morrus]

This is becoming a bit circular, but that does not address the things Level Up "takes away" from O5E builds. The original Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, and Polearm Master are key for many martial builds in O5E. Many Wizards rely on O5E Counterspell. D&D classes no longer have access to rules elements they relied on, while Level Up classes are built with those rule changes in mind.

They are different rule sets, and yes, Level Up can be used for D&D adventures, but it cannot be used alongside "D&D characters," since D&D characters rely on "D&D rules" and "D&D feats" and "D&D spells." Level Up has Level Up rules, Level Up feats, and Level Up spells. They are different. Different games, that work with the same adventures, yes, but not alongside the classes and rules from other games.

This is demonstrably untrue. We are playing a game right now with O5E characters playing alongside A5E characters. I suspect that you have not played in such a game.

Look, I get that you have a bee in your bonnet, but your tendency to just repeat things that aren’t true over and over again until people give up is getting a little tired.

 

[Faolyn]

This is becoming a bit circular, but that does not address the things Level Up "takes away" from O5E builds. The original Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, and Polearm Master are key for many martial builds in O5E. Many Wizards rely on O5E Counterspell. D&D classes no longer have access to rules elements they relied on, while Level Up classes are built with those rule changes in mind.

They are different rule sets, and yes, Level Up can be used for D&D adventures, but it cannot be used alongside "D&D characters," since D&D characters rely on "D&D rules" and "D&D feats" and "D&D spells." Level Up has Level Up rules, Level Up feats, and Level Up spells. They are different. Different games, that work with the same adventures, yes, but not alongside the classes and rules from other games.

OK, imagine if you have an o5e fighter and an A5e wizard in the same party. You don't use maneuvers, but you do use A5e spells. Likewise, you can easily say that you're only using o5e spells, or only o5e feats, and still have A5e classes.

 

[Rant]

This is demonstrably untrue. We are playing a game right now with O5E characters playing alongside A5E characters. I suspect that you have not played in such a game.

Look, I get that you have a bee in your bonnet, but your tendency to just repeat things that aren’t true over and over again until people give up is getting a little tired.

I think it's a question of "how" the O5E characters play alongside A5E characters. Are the O5E characters using the D&D versions of feats, spells, and core rules, or the Level Up versions? Again, everything ties together. A game with O5E characters and Level Up characters that uses the D&D 5e RPG rule set (core mechanics, feats, spells, and so on) is a different game from a Level Up game that adds D&D classes but uses Level Up rules, feats, spells, etc. If the O5E characters don't use O5e's feats, spells, and rules, they aren't fully functioning as "O5E characters." The same is true for Level Up characters used with O5E rules.

It may seem repetitive, because it is in fact the "same point" being rebutted by the same counterpoints. A new rule system like Pathfinder (original) was technically compatible with the classes from an old rule system, 3.5 D&D. Playing the classes from the two games together posed issues, however, for both balance and functionality. That's true for Level Up as well. The game is designed as a full replacement, not a "grab this or don't" optional rules add-on. That's totally fine, but it does mean a different kind of "compatibility" from what a lot of players would assume that means. Adventure path compatibility, yes, but it can't function with O5E classes if the feats, spells, and rules they relied on no longer exist in the same form.

 

[Morrus]

I think it's a question of "how" the O5E characters play alongside A5E characters. Are the O5E characters using the D&D versions of feats, spells, and core rules, or the Level Up versions? Again, everything ties together. A game with O5E characters and Level Up characters that uses the D&D 5e RPG rule set (core mechanics, feats, spells, and so on) is a different game from a Level Up game that adds D&D classes but uses Level Up rules, feats, spells, etc. If the O5E characters don't use O5e's feats, spells, and rules, they aren't fully functioning as "O5E characters." The same is true for Level Up characters used with O5E rules.

It may seem repetitive, because it is in fact the "same point" being rebutted by the same counterpoints. A new rule system like Pathfinder (original) was technically compatible with the classes from an old rule system, 3.5 D&D. Playing the classes from the two games together posed issues, however, for both balance and functionality. That's true for Level Up as well. The game is designed as a full replacement, not a "grab this or don't" optional rules add-on. That's totally fine, but it does mean a different kind of "compatibility" from what a lot of players would assume that means. Adventure path compatibility, yes, but it can't function with O5E classes if the feats, spells, and rules they relied on no longer exist in the same form.

I’m out.

 

[Faolyn]

I think it's a question of "how" the O5E characters play alongside A5E characters. Are the O5E characters using the D&D versions of feats, spells, and core rules, or the Level Up versions? Again, everything ties together. A game with O5E characters and Level Up characters that uses the D&D 5e RPG rule set (core mechanics, feats, spells, and so on) is a different game from a Level Up game that adds D&D classes but uses Level Up rules, feats, spells, etc. If the O5E characters don't use O5e's feats, spells, and rules, they aren't fully functioning as "O5E characters." The same is true for Level Up characters used with O5E rules.

If you're the DM, then you'd need to decide which version of the feats, spells, and rules you want to use for your game. If you're the player, you ask the DM.

You can, however, mix and match them. You can decide that the new combat actions are a thing in o5e. You can use the new versions of the spells or monsters, even if you use o5e PCs. You could decide to use o5e versions of spells in LU (which you'll have to, for all the spells that weren't converted due to not being in the OGL). You can have o5e people use LU weapons with all their new qualities--or you can have LU people use o5e weapons.

The game may be written as a "full replacement," in the sense that if you if you wanted to get into gaming and picked up the LU books instead of the PHB/DMG, you could play without problem. But you can pick and choose. As soon as my o5e players get out of the dungeon they're in, they're going to get some Journey/weather related stuff straight outta T&T.

Adventure path compatibility, yes, but it can't function with O5E classes if the feats, spells, and rules they relied on no longer exist in the same form.

I think since Morrus has said he's actually in a game that mixed o5e and A5e characters and it worked fine, that your argument doesn't work. I think maybe you need to try such a game and make note if parts don't work.

 

[Satirical Bard]

Again (!): What you get from a polearm master + sentinel build might be different, but you can still build it. It's still there.

Seriously Rant, by your definition every freaking house rule to modify OP and UP feats and spells, or let sorcerers use spell points, or changes to resting rules, makes the game incompatible. It's utter nonsense.

You seem to be assuming the context is an existing mid-high level PC being ported into a LU campaign. But then the normal customs that apply to any new house rules or homebrew applies: have a mature conversation with your players and agree on what to do going forward with everyone's consent.

But if you just wanted to play an o5e fighter in an otherwise LU game [using LU feats, LU combat options, etc], the people who have actually playtested that over more than a year (unlike you and I) assure us it works fine mechanically.

 

[Rant]

Again (!): What you get from a polearm master + sentinel build might be different, but you can still build it. It's still there.

Seriously Rant, by your definition every freaking house rule to modify OP and UP feats and spells, or let sorcerers use spell points, or changes to resting rules, makes the game incompatible. It's utter nonsense.

You seem to be assuming the context is an existing mid-high level PC being ported into a LU campaign. But then the normal customs that apply to any new house rules or homebrew applies: have a mature conversation with your players and agree on what to do going forward with everyone's consent.

But if you just wanted to play an o5e fighter in an otherwise LU game [using LU feats, LU combat options, etc], the people who have actually playtested that over more than a year (unlike you and I) assure us it works fine mechanically.

If you're the DM, then you'd need to decide which version of the feats, spells, and rules you want to use for your game. If you're the player, you ask the DM.

You can, however, mix and match them. You can decide that the new combat actions are a thing in o5e. You can use the new versions of the spells or monsters, even if you use o5e PCs. You could decide to use o5e versions of spells in LU (which you'll have to, for all the spells that weren't converted due to not being in the OGL). You can have o5e people use LU weapons with all their new qualities--or you can have LU people use o5e weapons.

The game may be written as a "full replacement," in the sense that if you if you wanted to get into gaming and picked up the LU books instead of the PHB/DMG, you could play without problem. But you can pick and choose. As soon as my o5e players get out of the dungeon they're in, they're going to get some Journey/weather related stuff straight outta T&T.


I think since Morrus has said he's actually in a game that mixed o5e and A5e characters and it worked fine, that your argument doesn't work. I think maybe you need to try such a game and make note if parts don't work.

On these points, in short, a lot of the assumption that a rules replacement still works with the rules and classes its replacing - which is a difficult concept to wrap my head around - seems to hang on the broad notion that "it works." I don't know what form these playtests took beyond being assured that they did. Were they unoptimized, feat-free O5E classes alongside similar LU classes? Were they optimized builds leveraging feats and multi-classing? Were they mixed parties? Did they use Level Up rules or D&D rules, or mix the rules for their respective classes to use? Were O5E-only parties able to address the challenges of the new Exploration pillar mechanics without the aid of LU characters?

It's correct that I can't personally attest to "balance" until I try it myself. I can confirm that builds my players use right now would "not exist" effectively if I was to switch to Level Up's rules from D&D's rules, right now, because the feats/spells/rules they depend on to function aren't there anymore. That much is obvious from reading the core book.

I don't see why it's an issue, if it's intended to replace the core rules of D&D, for it to function alongside them, anyway. But that does seem to be a hang up, either due to a semantics difference or just different conceptions of what "compatibility" means to different people.

 

[Faolyn]

@Rant, why not just give it a try for a session and see what happens?