Is Magic Gimped at High Levels?

satori01

First Post
In 1E & 2E magic, and Wizards were the undisputed masters of the the high levels. 3.5 changes that I think. Warrior types are the rulers of damage and have big HP totals.

Attack bonus increases are easy to come by, and in general the only checks a warrior needs to make to inflict damage is the to hit roll, and possibly a concealment miss chance. Of course a Warrior can roll to hit all day long.

Spellcasters on the other hand often have to make a ranged touch attack, Beat SR, Beat Concealment, and hope the opponent misses their saving throw.

The more dice you have to roll, the more chances you have for something to go wrong.

The power payoff seems off as well. I saw a Warmage cast a Sudden Empowered Disintegrate for 157 points of damage.

The session before I saw a Keen Scimitar wielding warrior critical hit 4 times for 215 damage. Damage in 3.5 seems to be less about the number of dice rolled, but more about how much of a solid modifier you can apply.

I regularly see a Divine Might, Power Attacking, Paladin hit for 117 damage, and when you add in Smite Evil and Bless Weapon, that damage goes up fast.

The archer in the group will Manyshot, or full attack for around 80 damage.

Spells just do not keep up in terms of damage dealt. The best spells seem to either be save or die, or should have some sort secondary effect to the damage.

This is kinda a big paradigm shift in terms of D&D balance. While I like the fact that warriors are potent at high levels, spells seem to lag behind, in terms of sheer damage dealing.
 

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the key point here is 'area of effect'.

While warriors indeed seem to dash out large amounts of damage, it is invariably against a single target. (not counting 'Cleave'. )

Spells, on the other hand, can damage large groups of opponents.

Herzog
 

It often matters not how many HP you have on a save-or-die spell. I imagine that you'll find that mages (clerics, too) still rule the high levels. PHB II went a good way in helping warrior types bridge the gap. But I think spellcasters still rule the game once they hit high level spells.
 

Magic users are still the undisputed masters at high levels. The fact that the meat shields have closed the gap some doesn't mean that magic is gimped. Thinking of spells as mere substitutes for swinging a piece of sharp metal is narrow-minded. The power of the blade pales before the power of the wish, or gate, or shapechange, or any of dozens of other spells. In a conflict between a fighter and a wizard, the fight should be over before it's begun.
 

I think you're just looking at damage.

Spells do more than damage.

To me, different classes excel at different things. Your fighter can fight all day long, but when he falls fighting a pit fiend, it's his mage buddy who's going to be teleporting his corpse back to the temple in order to get raised.

That's just one example of course. I'm not saying that all mages do is teleport. Mages will also be the one that takes down the many buffs that is protecting some other mage's minions.

I just think that simplifying mages into damage dealing machines is definitly not doing them justice.
 

IMHO, warriors *should* lead the pack in terms of damage-dealing. It's the only thing they're good at, after all.

First off, I'll dispute that casters are all that bad at dealing damage. Comparing the warmage to a fighter who critically hit four(!) times in a round is not really descriptive of expected outcomes. But even then, keep in mind that the warmage needed to use a standard action (or do they cast like sorcerers? I don't have the Miniatures Handbook) to pull off that spell. More importantly, he could do it from a nice safe distance; a better comparison therefore would be with an archer's damage.

Second, damage is not what casters are about at high levels. Let the meat shields go in swinging; you have insta-kill spells! As you noted, there are plenty of save-or-die (or no save at all) effects. Dominate monster; maze; baleful polymorph; imprisonment; wail of the banshee. The options are endless.

Third, the options are endless! You can exercise battlefield control using wall spells, fog spells, and various other effects (prismatic sphere, scintillating pattern, etc.). You can command magically-enslaved thralls. You can bind high-CR creatures and send *them* to deal the damage. All this, plus you can fly, turn invisible, teleport, travel the planes, buff everyone else...

No, casters most assuredly do *not* have it hard at high levels. Warriors are just slightly better (read: actually useful) in 3e than in previous editions.
 

satori01 said:
The power payoff seems off as well. I saw a Warmage cast a Sudden Empowered Disintegrate for 157 points of damage.

The session before I saw a Keen Scimitar wielding warrior critical hit 4 times for 215 damage. Damage in 3.5 seems to be less about the number of dice rolled, but more about how much of a solid modifier you can apply.

Having watched a 20th level sorcerer roll a sphere of ultimate destruction across a battlefield from target to target, dealing hundreds of points of damage round after round, I'm inclined to think the arcanists can still hold their own. :) In our climactic encounter to an Epic-level game, our outcome was not decided by Enchanted steel - it was decided by anti-magic fields! If magic were not so important, we wouldn't have been able to even arrive at the final battle, and the enemy wouldn't have prepped a half-dozen AMF spells to try and take us out.
 

Evokers are gimped in terms of ability to do damage, I'd agree. In OD&D the 5d6 fireball was fearsome at 5th level. In AD&D it was pretty bad, especially as it kept scaling up IIRC and wasn't capped at 10d6. In 3e it just softens up a number of foes and that's about it.

Other casting styles do OK (until illusionists hit true sight or enchanters hit mind blank), and conjurers are living the life of riley.
 

Like all comparisons that only look at damage for class comparison, this is highly flawed. ;)

You need to look at the full picture, not just a small part of it.

Bye
Thanee
 

No way in hell are casters gimped. Sure, evokers can't do as much damage but a caster can, with one spell, kill or render helpless numerous foes.
Slay Living or drop a foe to -10, same difference.
 

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