Is Magic Gimped at High Levels?

[Harm]

In 1E & 2E magic, and Wizards were the undisputed masters of the the high levels. 3.5 changes that I think. Warrior types are the rulers of damage and have big HP totals.

Melee have somewhat big HP. That part is right.

Attack bonus increases are easy to come by, and in general the only checks a warrior needs to make to inflict damage is the to hit roll, and possibly a concealment miss chance. Of course a Warrior can roll to hit all day long.

ACs on appropriate level mobs are often high enough that melee have a difficult time of hitting and then their damage gets reduced by DR.

Spellcasters on the other hand often have to make a ranged touch attack, Beat SR, Beat Concealment, and hope the opponent misses their saving throw.

A ranged touch attack will only be missed on a 1. SR is meaningless since WotC added Assay, concealment is rare or dispellable. Saving throws will be passed typically. Even "weaK' savingthrows for mobs at high levels will typically be higher than the DC of the caster's spell, but thats why you don't pick all or nothing spells. If every monster fell over dead on a slay living combat would be even dumber than it is now. High level clerics can take dozens of slay livings and would plow through entire adventures in one sitting.

The power payoff seems off as well. I saw a Warmage cast a Sudden Empowered Disintegrate for 157 points of damage.

The session before I saw a Keen Scimitar wielding warrior critical hit 4 times for 215 damage. Damage in 3.5 seems to be less about the number of dice rolled, but more about how much of a solid modifier you can apply.

I regularly see a Divine Might, Power Attacking, Paladin hit for 117 damage, and when you add in Smite Evil and Bless Weapon, that damage goes up fast.

The archer in the group will Manyshot, or full attack for around 80 damage.

Spells just do not keep up in terms of damage dealt. The best spells seem to either be save or die, or should have some sort secondary effect to the damage.

You just said yourself your mage cast disintigrate for 157. How is that not keeping up? By high level your mages will have metamagic rods and almost EVERY spell they cast will be maximized and/or empowered. Toss in normal maximize and things like chain spell or divine metamagic and mages far far far outdamage melee.

This is kinda a big paradigm shift in terms of D&D balance. While I like the fact that warriors are potent at high levels, spells seem to lag behind, in terms of sheer damage dealing.

The exact opposite is true. Harm goes up by 10 pts/level, disintigrate by 2d6=12 pts/level. Sneak attack goes up by 1d6 per TWO levels. Power attack by 2 pts/level. 40 AC mobs the melee often miss are easy prey with 8 touch AC for the mages.

 

[Piratecat]

Other casting styles do OK (until illusionists hit true sight or enchanters hit mind blank), and conjurers are living the life of riley.

I'm not sure I agree. "Protection from evil" throws a major crimp in a conjurer's day.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Not as bad a crimp as it does in an enchanter's day!

Called creatures can ignore the barrier effect of that spell, and summoned creatures can still use ranged attacks against the protected creature. That seems pretty good to me.

 

[Thanee]

I'm not sure I agree. "Protection from evil" throws a major crimp in a conjurer's day.

Like everyone out there had Protection from Evil available.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Schmoe]

I'm not sure I agree. "Protection from evil" throws a major crimp in a conjurer's day.

I think Plane Sailing was probably referring to the various Orb and other spells that allow no SR and no save.

 

[Nifft]

Direct damage spellcasters are weak at high level.

That's why Warmage is weak at high level.

Regular spellcasters shift gears and start learning that there are better uses for your slots than direct damage. (Save-or-die, save-or-suffer, buffs, illusions, avoid-the-whole-fight abjurations and divinations... and of course Necromancy, with astral projection, means you can fight without all that pesky personal risk.)

-- N

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think Plane Sailing was probably referring to the various Orb and other spells that allow no SR and no save.

Yep, that's what I'm thinking of.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

This is kinda a big paradigm shift in terms of D&D balance. While I like the fact that warriors are potent at high levels, spells seem to lag behind, in terms of sheer damage dealing.

If warriors had save-or-die effects to whip out, or battlefield control effects, or eject!-eject!-EJECT! effects to save themselves and others, this might be a more meaningful complaint.

Spellcasters still simply rock da house at higher levels. And it is mostly the capabilities of high level spellcasters that end up radically altering the style of campaigns.

 

[Nifft]

If warriors had save-or-die effects to whip out, or battlefield control effects, or eject!-eject!-EJECT! effects to save themselves and others, this might be a more meaningful complaint.

To be fair, warriors do have some of these options.

Reach-weapon tripper = battlefield control, to a degree.

Grapple for a non-melee guy can be like a save-or-suffer effect.

Sunder can be a save-or-suffer like debuff, especially on an archer.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Raloc]

If anything, I'd say the melee classes are still far from equal to casters, especially at high levels where a single caster could demolish a whole party of melee types with a few well placed spells.