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4E Is Multi-Attacking Really Control? A different Fireball

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I know if enemies know you have big area effects and they spread out or even 1e fashion if the spell is so ubiquitous and ally unfriendly that they know to close quickly so your wizard will be reluctant to use it as it would harm his allies there is sort of nebulous second hand control. But without a lot of assumptions about spells gameworld and monster tactics etc. that fireball kind of isnt control...

Now a fireball that pushed enemies away from its center point (or where those who succeed in the saving throw are moved away to represent their own efforts) and which left burning ground afterwards would feel like a control power and would be a better more tactical Fireball than the original.

Kind of like having your cake and eating it too in nice Tactically Interesting sandwich.

I very much think the Fireball and also Lightning* are so wizard canonical that if the role is control they need to really be control.

Multi-attacking really seems to be another type of striker unless we make it less so.

Fireball (Controller Variant)
DailyArcane, Evocation, Fire, Implement
Standard Action
Area Burst 4 Within 20 Squares
Target: each creature within the burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
Miss: Half damage. Target is pushed 2 squares away from the center
Effect: Creates a zone of heat and dwindling fire, covering the area of the burst, that lasts until the end of your next turn. Each creature that enters the zone or ends their turn within the area takes Intelligence modifier fire damage.(only once on their turn).
Effect : Sulfurous Smoke option the zone is filled with light smoke which impairs the senses of those entering or within it causes creatures to treat all targets as having partial concealment till the end of their next turn.


I made the above slightly larger. the original had a 2 inch radius which was in dungeon (40 foot diameter... maybe it isn't needed) I did reduce the damage back to what was originally printed in 4e. The addition of the Region particularly if the sulfurous smoke is used seems like better recompense.

I think Lightning needs to be made more controllerish tool.. Delivering a payload of stunning seems appropriate
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
One of the things I wanted to see in a 5e was a refinement of the Wizards tactical role as a controller...
It really really looks like that isn't happening.
 
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Xeviat

Explorer
Area attacks "could" be considered control, since you're controlling the enemy's ability to attack in formation. But, strikers get a fair amount of area attacks, often with boosted damage.

My issue with controllers in 4E was that control was baked into their powers, they didn't have a class ability for it. This meant multiclassing allowed other classes to steal more controller abilities than other roles could.

I agree, though. Area attacks with forced movement or hindering terrain feel more controller focused than others.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
More artillery, control as such usually just slows the game down. Death is the best debuff really.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
More artillery, control as such usually just slows the game down. Death is the best debuff really.
Focused damage is probably a faster debuff than spread damage if that is the only target UNLESS one is dealing with outclassed adversaries like minions.

And if one wants MORE damage to a lot of adversaries the Sorcerer is your go to class
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My issue with controllers in 4E was that control was baked into their powers, they didn't have a class ability for it. This meant multiclassing allowed other classes to steal more controller abilities than other roles could.

I agree, though. Area attacks with forced movement or hindering terrain feel more controller focused than others.
That would be another reason to revise them from the ground up. Though the essentials mages pointed towards class features that seem to work, but they are pasted on top of powers with their power already baked in.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
But, strikers get a fair amount of area attacks, often with boosted damage.
I think with strikers they still do consider area of effect damage as a value or an option

So you consider things like nova, ongoing rate and multitarget too.


  1. Nova: The most damage you can do to a single target in one turn / round, +/- daily powers, action points, etc.
  2. DPR: The most damage you can do to a single target in every round.
  3. AoE: The most damage you can do to a bunch of targets at once.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Everyone gets some control but I feel the controller as a role specialization was just coming together and classic Wizard effects even the Fireball can be visualized better in terms of it than they were.

A Sorcerer wearing a wizard hat for those who want the striker flavor seems fine

One thing about the area effect Sorcerer.

When your allies have significant buffs against bloodied enemies or a fondness for using intimidation to short circuit the situation,thenhaving good broad damage on the field can accelerate the fight too... but without such a thing the enemy tend to be just as potent and dealing back just as much damage till the last hit point.

A DM who has appropriately human like enemies themselves run when bloodied or having allies go down fast regardless of an explicit intimidation is probably doing old fashioned roleplaying of the bad guys (not particularly a bad thing in my opinion).
 
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Xeviat

Explorer
The more and more I look back at 4E, I feel like "artillery" would have been a better role than controller. It would have been easier to build around. Classes like the wizard could have still been built with supportive hard control attacks, but that's part of their class; a trick Archer could do similar things, knowing how to shoot to slow, to make someone Dodge attacks and move, to pin someone to a wall or the floor.

But, I also would like to go back and redesign the classes so the classes could be multiple roles, as defined by their build options. The core four could be all four roles (a healing domain cleric is a leader, a war domain cleric could be more of a defender; a Warlord is a leader fighter, a Slayer is a striker fighter, a knight is a defender fighter, an Archer is an artillery fighter ...). Class bloat could have been managed, powers would have to be duplicated less (there are a lot of damage and slow weapon attacks).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
a trick Archer could do similar things, knowing how to shoot to slow, to make someone Dodge attacks and move, to pin someone to a wall or the floor.
The hunter from essentials.(though they mixed in Primal so they could say magic for higher level effects)

Although a really feat invested ranger could do a fair nice amount of control effects. (against a lot fewer enemies)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Mechanically if a pure control action only prevented two enemies from effectively acting once you have accelerated the fight if you only prevent one its kind of a stand off. Presumably you need to affect more minions than that - This reminds me of why sleep was based on hit dice, but I make minions affected by sleep after a single roll (and permanently comatose) instead of taking multi-roll. The wicked witch was scary to regular people.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Attacks with more than 2 enemies affected by melee characters seem rather rarish (with affecting three tied to using ones minor action or dailies and the like). The sword mage even though a defender immediately gets a multi-attack melee at-will as does the striker the monk who has 2 and I am not totally sure why other than the oddity of the special move action to an attack. (grumbles about martial artist being not considered martial and remains grumbling) , That the berserk doesn't have one is downright silly. I will be fixing that in my Martial Power III.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Lightning bolt, Wizard Attack 7
Brilliant strokes of blue-white lightning erupts from your outstretched hand and bounds from enemy to enemy
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Evocation, Implement, Lightning
Standard Action
Ranged 10
Target: 1, 2 or 3 creatures (1 attack per creature)
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage, target is dazed till the end of next turn.
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage, target may not make opportunity attacks till the end of next turn.
Final Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage, target may not make opportunity actions till the end of next turn.

The original 4e Lightning bolt had no damage on a miss and the reduced damage above I added in the stun effect for the first target only and the "dazzling" which prevents opportunity action.

Does it seem to be too much?
 
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Tony Vargas

Adventurer
One of the things I wanted to see in a 5e was a refinement of the Wizards tactical role as a controller...
It really really looks like that isn't happening.
A lot of the Controller role was just a rationalization to give the wizard more/better powers than other classes, so that it retained /some/ fraction of the look/feel/versatility it had when LFQW was in full force.

5e has returned to LFQW, the wizard's powers are back to being broader than any 4e-style role could encompass.

I know if enemies know you have big area effects and they spread out or even 1e fashion if the spell is so ubiquitous and ally unfriendly that they know to close quickly so your wizard will be reluctant to use it as it would harm his allies there is sort of nebulous second hand control.
Yeah, I think it's legitimately a form of control, or, at least, something that's been bundled into a controller role that'd still have enough going on without it.

AEs:
  • Efficiently reduce minions, while single target options are often 'wasted' against them.
  • Deal full (even extra) damage vs Swarms, while melee/range damage is reduced.
  • Attack invisible or concealed foes at no penalty, and allow you to make broader guesses about where hidden foes may be.
  • Interdict areas of the battlefield. This is the second-hand control you're talking about. If an AE targets all creatures, there are places you can target it without catching your allies, this shapes the battlefield and encourages enemies to engage your allies
  • Limit enemy tactics that require closely supporting eachother. AEs that target enemies can even punish flanking by centering them on an ally being mobbed.

I could see breaking out the AE thing to a different, striker-like "Blaster" role, while focusing controllers on imposing conditions.

But without a lot of assumptions about spells gameworld and monster tactics etc. that fireball kind of isnt control...

Now a fireball that pushed enemies away from its center point (or where those who succeed in the saving throw are moved away to represent their own efforts)
I do like the idea of a push and/or knocked prone on a miss to represent moving/diving for cover.

I think Lightning needs to be made more controllerish tool.. Delivering a payload of stunning seems appropriate
I think there's lightning powers that blind, daze, stun or the like.

I've noticed that cold powers tend to slow, restrain, or weaken; fire to do ongoing damage (meh); necrotic to weaken, immobilize, or do ongoing; psychic to daze, or stun, etc...

There's a few little threads of consistency snaking through the wizard's spell list.


The original 4e Lightning bolt had no damage on a miss and the reduced damage above I added in the stun effect for the first target only and the "dazzling" which prevents opportunity action.

Does it seem to be too much?
Yes, the stun, and anything at all on a miss with an Encounter, is too much. The Dazzling is good, though. Actually, I could see a primary & secondary attack that do damage. And then a larger AE attack that just dazzles.
 
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Xeviat

Explorer
So is artillery just ranged striker AND multi-striker.

I think so. A melee defender is really just a melee controller who uses their own AC and HP as one of their tools of control. A rogue could conceivably do control through hamstring and other status effects. These effects are baked into powers, there's no good way to build it without giving "better" powers to controllers (as Tony talks about).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think so. A melee defender is really just a melee controller who uses their own AC and HP as one of their tools of control. A rogue could conceivably do control through hamstring and other status effects. These effects are baked into powers, there's no good way to build it without giving "better" powers to controllers (as Tony talks about).
Status effects could have a basic form ... which is limited then have a feature which if you take it extends that.

For instance that hamstring might last 1 more round if your rogue is the brutal manipulator build or whatever.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
These effects are baked into powers, there's no good way to build it without giving "better" powers to controllers (as Tony talks about).
Oh, I think there could be, especially if Blaster were broken out from Controller, leaving controllers all about conditions.

For instance, implement mastery could have added or upgraded condition riders on powers, using obvious upgrade paths like Slowed>Immobilized>Restrained or Dazed>Stunned>Dominated. Or a "rune of power" could add a specific condition to powers based on keywords (Your encounter powers with the Necrotic Keyword Weaken for a round, Dailies do so Save Ends).

A generic Blaster feature could be into increase the size of Bursts by 1 and Blasts by 2.


I've thought about that before in the context of consolidating powers by Source instead of class.
 

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