Is Multiclassing Balanced?

[airwalkrr]

Several people have mentioned the "bridgin" prestige classes. But suppose I don't want to use prestige classes in my game? Part of the problem I have with multiclassing is that it is virtually pointless for spellcasting characters without prestige classes. And I have to be honest, as cool as prestige classes are, I think they have a lot of problems with implementation.

 

[Ravellion]

Check out the Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana. Very flexible if you take one class and extremely flexible if you multi-class.

Thanks,
Rich

Tried it, too open for blatant min maxing. Example: Warriors and Experts both get a lot of feats at early levels. For the cost of 1 BAB and 4 hp (average), and a net two feats, all lvl 20 combatants can now have 9d6 sneak attack.

I'd only use that system if I had only true theatre type roleplayers in my group. I have a mixed group however, so this flexibility is a problem.

Also, the Spellcaster is like a sorcerer with less spells per day "Because of higher versatility". What a load of crap that was. How much versatility can you have with one known second level spell at level 4?


Rav

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Several people have mentioned the "bridgin" prestige classes. But suppose I don't want to use prestige classes in my game? Part of the problem I have with multiclassing is that it is virtually pointless for spellcasting characters without prestige classes. And I have to be honest, as cool as prestige classes are, I think they have a lot of problems with implementation.

There's the Magic Rating rules. They're even more useful if you use fractional progressions - Column A is 1 per level, Column B is 0.5 per level, and Column C is 0.25 per level.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I believe in a lot of cases, it is unbalanced - particularly with spellcasters.

Lets take for instance a Fighter 10 or a Wizard 10. In terms of CR, they are both a CR 10. Now, lets look at the Fighter 5/ Wizard 5. Are they also a true CR 10? The effectiveness and DCs of spells would be much lower although the ability to buff (or any spell synergistic with the other class taken) is handy. The ability to fight is much reduced including the difficulties with armor (in terms of casting spells). Overall, because each of the classes only minimally benefits the other one, I'd say that the character's effective CR is also reduced. Now I know that there is a difference between CR (in terms of opponents) and then playing the character through a series of combats in terms of effectiveness. However I still feel that there is a significant power drop here causing imbalance.

There is precedence for this in the Age of Worms Campaign too. If you are playing in that campaign or are planning to, please do not read the following spoilered text.

Spoiler

The Mindflayer in that campaign is a similar case as pointed out by the learned guys over at Dungeon. Your stock standard Mind Flayer is a CR 8. Add seven levels of sorcerer and by regular thinking, you have calaculated the creature as a CR 15. However it is only given a CR 11 as the extra sorcerer levels do not overtly add to it's effectiveness.

Z*****'s CR is correct at 11; his sorcerer levels are not associated class levels (see page 294 of the Monser Manual). The only time sorcerer (or any primary spellcasting class, for that matter) would be an associated class level would be in the case of a monster that already has spellcasting levels, like an aranea or a naga or a nymph. Several of the sample monsters in the Monster Manual (the 9th-level sorcerer mind flayer included) unfortunately have the wrong CR listed.

Table 4-4 in the Monster Manual recommends increasing the CR by 1 for every associated class level or by 1 for every 2 non-associated class levels. To my way of thinking, this is the closest thing I can thing of in terms of primary spellcasters (Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard) mixed with non-spellcasters. If the blend is focused in one direction, I don't see too much of a problem but when the classes are split (like the above fighter 5/ wizard 5) there is a noticeable power drop.

By the table in the MM, the Fighter 5/wizard 5 would be a CR 7. To my way of thinking, this disparity is quite evident in play.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Table 4-4 in the Monster Manual recommends increasing the CR by 1 for every associated class level or by 1 for every 2 non-associated class levels. To my way of thinking, this is the closest thing I can thing of in terms of primary spellcasters (Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard) mixed with non-spellcasters. If the blend is focused in one direction, I don't see too much of a problem but when the classes are split (like the above fighter 5/ wizard 5) there is a noticeable power drop.

By the table in the MM, the Fighter 5/wizard 5 would be a CR 7. To my way of thinking, this disparity is quite evident in play.

I think this is a very astute understanding of the situation. However, the question I have is while it might be nice to think of playing a fighter/mage ... is it really a legitimate solution? I mean, there is a reason that Gestault (sp?) exists in Unearthed Arcana. Anytime one tries to pull off two different concepts in the same character you either drop in power naturally or you need a system like Gestault to make it work. The reason a rogue/ranger or fighter/paladin work well is because they are similar (read: comporable) paths. There is no comporable path to a spellcaster outside of prestige classes. And I don't think that is a bad thing.

I personally don't think a fighter/mage is a viable class combo in my games. While everyone else is focusin all their emphasis in one direction (melee combat, ranged combat, social skills, spring attack style fighting, arcane magic, divine magic, etc...) the fighter/mage is by definition pursuing two non-parallel paths. There has to be some inherent penalty for that.

I like the system as it is and I personally think we'd be worse off if they make the fighter/mage more viable (except through prestige classes like the Eldritch Knight, Green Star Adept, etc...)

I also acknowledge this is my opinion and not a fact, so people are welcome to disagree, too!

 

[Orius]

Seems to me it's normally ok, unless you're a spellcaster, in which case it tends to lessen your abilities.

That doesn't really bother me though, I don't want characters that can mix and match a whole bunch of classes and be good at them all either. There should be some reason to focus as well.

 

[kingpaul]

I noticed that many people complain about multiclassed casters. Has anyone looked at Legends of Sorcery? In there, they have rules that give all classes a BMB (Base Magic Bonus) for casting.

 

[Hussar]

I think we can point to the number of "fixes" out there for multiclassed casters as pretty decent evidence that there are quite a few people that think that multiclassed casters get hosed. If it wasn't an issue, I don't think people would be flogging cures.

And, the degree of those fixes varies pretty wildly too. The Warmage - fantastic at making the bad mens fall down. Absolutely pants at anything else. If you compare his usefulness to the party to a straight mage, he falls on his face. Total lack of any utility spells makes for a very weak wizard.

 

[Sejs]

It's fine as-is, far as I'm concerned.

Using fractional BAB and saves helps smooth out the kinks a great deal though, I'll admit. Without it things can get a little odd.

 

[Nyeshet]

I chose "balanced for non-casters, weak for casters." In point of fact, I am not entirely sure if it is completely balanced for non-casters, although I admit that non-casters suffer far far less than casters. Casters more or less require patch classes / PrCs to function if multiclassed (such as the Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, and equivalents).

Oddly enough, if vancian magic was not the core of the casting system I think the problem would not be quite as notable. A skill based system for instance, might work well if a feat were allowed with the following traits: Pre-req: the magic skill is already a class skill for at least one class level already taken; Benefit: the magic skill is considered a class skill for all further class levels taken. Have about a dozen or so magic skills, re-emplement exclusive skills so that a level of a caster class must be taken to gain use of them as class or cross-class skill (dependent on the caster type), and perhaps multiclassing casters would no longer be a major issue.

As for whether casters could multiclass in a balanced manner in a point based system - just look at psionics. They too need to make use of patch PrCs. Granted, they also make use of manifester levels. If that could be dropped and a means of gaining points made independent of class (such as bonus hp from Con) then perhaps a point based casting system could also multiclass in a balanced manner. I do think that the point based system is closer than the vancian system, however.