Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?

[Goolpsy]

Oh one more thing... "buff time".. well he would just cast his spells so they last for the day etc. = 0 buff time.. other than the 10 min it takes to cast in the morning while the rest of the party is getting up and eating breakfast...

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd figured that the most effective spend would be a 3/7/10, honestly, with the 7 being in whatever class he wanted 9th level spells in. But being able to cast 8th level divine and arcane spells is nothing to sneeze at either.

Potentially 9th in both, as a Drd/Wiz/MyTh/ArcHie.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Oh one more thing... "buff time".. well he would just cast his spells so they last for the day etc. = 0 buff time.. other than the 10 min it takes to cast in the morning while the rest of the party is getting up and eating breakfast...

But the problem is that your assumption that buff time is even available immediately skews the comparison. You can't say that a MT would beat anyone else because you require a list of preset conditions. Given a lot of "ifs" even a bard could beat somebody.

 

[Storm Raven]

I believe otherwise. I see the potential for a wizard's worth of spell slots that can be used entirely for buffs and utility, while a normal wizard would balance buffs and utility spells with options to contribute directly to combat. IMC, I believe enough this would cause a problem that I don't want to playtest it for another year and then force the player to respend his character if I determine that, indeed, I was right.

Realistically, you don't get that many useful net spells out of the combination. For example, take a typical 9th level Mystic Theurge (Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 3) vs. a 9th level single classed Cleric. Let's give them both a 20 Wisdom (accounting for a reasonable initial score, plus magic items and level adjustments), and just to make it interesting, we'll give the Mystic Theurge a 20 Intelligence.

Their spells, by level:

Cleric

Divine - 0th: 6, 1st: 6+1, 2nd: 5+1, 3rd: 4+1, 4th: 3+1, 5th: 2+1

Mystic Theurge:

Arcane - 0th: 4, 1st: 5, 2nd: 4, 3rd: 3
Divine - 0th: 5, 1st: 5+1, 2nd: 4+1, 3rd: 3+1

So, let's net this out


Cleric - 0th: 6, 1st: 6+1, 2nd: 5+1, 3rd: 4+1, 4th: 3+1, 5th: 2+1
Theurge - 0th: 9, 1st: 10+1, 2nd: 8+1, 3rd: 6+1

Net Theurge: 0th: +3, 1st: +4, 2nd: +3, 3rd: +2, 4th: -4, 5th: -3

Just going by raw numbers, the Mystic Theurge only "gains" a net of 5 spell slots per day, and if you discount the extra 0th level slots (which are trivial in general), that number drops to a net gain of +2 spell slots per day. And those spell slots are low level to begin with.

Figure it this way: offset the MT's +2 3rd level slots, +3 2nd level slots, and 2 of the +4 1st level slots with 4th and 5th level cleric slots, and you are left with the MT gaining a net +2 1st level slots and +3 0th level slots. How many cool 1st level wizard buffs are you going to have to deal with?

And for those +3 0th and +2 1st level spells slots, the MT gives up d8 hit dice, Medium BAB, good Fort saves, turning progression, and advancement in domain abilities. He has a lower caster level with all of his spells to boot, meaning the effectiveness of his spells is hampered as well.

So far? Standing in the back, dropping AoE divine debuffs, healing the party, sometimes getting a hit off, and wearing too much armor to be the prime target of the NPCs that are actually trying to even the odds. Nothing that has happened so far would lead me to believe that being somewhat closer to a Wizard would hinder his normal method of operation. And I forsee being able to round himself out with an array of buffs to be likely to mitigate a lot of the difference between wizard and cleric.

How is he going to do that with a net +3 0th level and +2 1st level spells?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Realistically, you don't get that many useful net spells out of the combination.

Excellent analysis, Storm Raven.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Would you also disallow a Specialist Wizard: Abjurer (or whatever the "buff" wizard school is)? They get 1 extra buff spell per level...

 

[IcyCool]

Excellent analysis, Storm Raven.

Agreed.

I don't think I've ever opined otherwise. IMC, I forsee the class causing problems, and I don't think it's cool enough to be worth overcoming them.

Well, you are the GM, so don't allow the class. If you are concerned about balance problems, I think that's pretty much been covered. So just tell you player that you don't like the class, that you feel it lacks flavor, and because you use a bunch of 3.0 spells (3.0 haste, *shudder*) it seems overpowered to you.

You might also want to look into banning Pearls of Power in the DMG and the feats in Complete Arcane that provide wizards extra spell slots, as a wizard could simply take those, use them for long term buffs, and still have a full complement of blasty wizard spells.

But if you want to come here and say that the Mystic Theurge is overpowered, be prepared to defend yourself.

If you are still interested in a balance discussion about the class, please say so. I do like talking about the class. I was one of those GMs who, when I first saw it, said, "Well, they've gone and ruined the game, what spellcaster in his right mind won't that prestige class?" Now, obviously, I feel differently.

Edit - Storm Raven's analysis reminded me of yet another drawback to Mystic Theurge. Multiple Ability Dependency. If you want to be able to cast those higher level spells, you need a high Int and Wis.

 

[Samhaine]

So just tell you player that you don't like the class, that you feel it lacks flavor, and because you use a bunch of 3.0 spells (3.0 haste, *shudder*) it seems overpowered to you.

I did. He brought it up here. I provided the context for my decision.

But if you want to come here and say that the Mystic Theurge is overpowered, be prepared to defend yourself.

In my current campaign, I believe it is. In your campaign, it's obviously not.

If you are still interested in a balance discussion about the class, please say so. I do like talking about the class. I was one of those GMs who, when I first saw it, said, "Well, they've gone and ruined the game, what spellcaster in his right mind won't that prestige class?" Now, obviously, I feel differently.

Yeah, and that was my initial response, too. On inspection, it proved not as overpowered as I'd assumed, but still not appropriate for my game. If I had a setting-based rationale for including it, and was running a game where a bunch of utility spells weren't likely to trump raw power, I would seriously consider including it.

 

[irdeggman]

First off Samhaine it is your game and use of any Prestige Class is soley up to the DM - so if you don't want it then it isn't available.

Now if you want to discuss what I perceive as faulty logic then:

As stated earlier mixing 3.0 and 3.5 (especially for spells) is extremely bad and will tend to unbalance even the best laid out games - especially (as also noted) 3.0 Haste and combining the 3.0 buff durations.

In order to gain the correct level of spells the MT must balance out both of his prime abilities for casting (assuming W/Cl that would be Int/Wis), this greatly reduces his other abilities - like Dex or Con.

The MT still can only cast 1 spell per round (unless using Quickened spells -{higher level spell slots} or the "broken" 3.0 Haste). That is one of your main balancers here.

The MT will not have sufficient number of bonus feats to get all those real juicy feats that a straight class wizard can.

As echoed before the real reason the class won't work is because of the house-rules used (the 3.0 spells make it really overpowering) - and so for your game it definitely seems to be broke. But I would caution you on using any 3.5 feats or PrCl since many of them were predicated on the nerfing of the spells for 3.5.

 

[Storm Raven]

Edit - Storm Raven's analysis reminded me of yet another drawback to Mystic Theurge. Multiple Ability Dependency. If you want to be able to cast those higher level spells, you need a high Int and Wis.

Yep. For example, to keep things even, given that I gave the Mystic Theurge 20 Intelligence (in addition to the 20 Wisdom that both characters share), you have to assume that the Cleric has 20 in some other score. Imagine, for example, that the Cleric has a 20 Constitution. Now the Cleric, in addition to d8 Hit Dice, has +45 hit points as a result of his high Constitution score. So, using my example characters, here is how they might be statted out:

Cleric 9: Str 10, Int 10, Wis 20, Dex 10, Con 20, Cha 10; HD 9d8+45; HP 89 (average, full at 1st).

Mystic Theurge (Cleric 3/Wiz 3/MT 3): Str 10, Int 20, Wis 20, Dex 10, Con 10, Cha 10; HD 6d4+3d8; HP 32 (average, full at 1st).

It is going to take a lot of buffs to make up the net +57 hit points the straight cleric has.