Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?

[Shallown]

The best envrionment for the MT is when you have a large enough party to take the loss in top end power which it seems you do. They can be significant buffers and utility/toll box characters being able to contribute in lots of cases. It works even better if two dedicated casters are in the group. You might think they would be less useful but truth is they can use their ability to have the right spells available to handle different situations.

Its a balanced and fun class. Hardest part is the multiclassing then first 3-4 levels of MT before the synergy really kicks in well. Also don't bather to take Practiced spell caster till about 9th and 12th level feats. Usually going for wizard first since they seem to get more out of it. Any earlier and it feels like a wasted feat.

later

 

[The Souljourner]

If you actually run a MT from low levels, it's quite weak. If you start at middle levels (8+), it's fairly balanced. It's definitely not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. I've had one in a group, and while the guy had a ton of spells, none of them were as powerful as what the straight casters had.

And remember, you can only add bonus spellcaster levels to classes that actually have innate spellcasting levels, not those that also give bonus spellcaster levels.

-The Souljourner

 

[green slime]

Yes, they are "balanced".

 

[nittanytbone]

Don't forget, you're also giving up a good cleric BAB progression, good Fort saves, and good cleric D8 hit dice for D4s.

I definitely think its balanced.

 

[Samhaine]

Hey everyone, I'm GMing the game in question and I figured I'd go ahead and post the rationale I sent out earlier for being wary of allowing the class.

I don't think it's totally twinkish, I just think that it has two major issues compared to other prestige classes:

1) No real downside/investment: Most prestige classes have enough feat or skill investments that you're giving something up to take them, or the lack of bonus abilities makes it a hard choice if your main class would get cool abilities later. Cleric just gets extra turning and Wizard a couple of extra item feats. You're behind by 3 levels on spell advancement, but that's made up for by the sheer number of spells that you get and you'll still get 9th level spells at level 20. There's no real barrier to entry and no real downside to taking the class.

2) No flavor: Other prestige classes get nifty abilities that are not available through other means. Other prestige classes have backstory that can be somewhat determined just by the array of abilities that they get. Mystic Theurge just gets lots of spells. It's obviously just a system patch for the suckiness of trying to multiclass between two spellcasting classes. There's nothing really *neat* about it other than the dubious benefit of having a ton of spells.

Obviously the consensus here is that the loss of spell levels is more of a downside than I propose. However, the situations that the party has been in throughout the last three levels (and my style of DMing in general) have been ones where utility spells and buffs, I feel, would be at least as useful as a couple more levels of oomph. There is usually plenty of time to prepare for challenges and we're still using a lot of stuff from 3.0 including the longer durations on the low-level buffs and the more advantageous version of Haste. Essentially, for a slight decrease in divine spell effectiveness the group would have an entire wizard's spell slots worth of buffs and utility spells (which makes armor not prohibitive).

Not that any of that would be particularly damning, if the class was more styalistically evocative. It just feels like what it is; a patch on the limitation of trying to multiclass between spellcasting classes. I'd be willing to consider classes with similar abilities if they were just cooler.

At least that's my reasoning.

 

[Goolpsy]

Im pretty sure that they indeed can wear armor... as they've gained the proficiency from the cleric class, they just don't get further proficiency.

Well u guys conviced me that he isn't overpowered at the low levels... what about epic levels... where you can keep taking it, as it is a 10 levels prestige class... Are they still balanced there?

 

[IcyCool]

I don't think it's totally twinkish, I just think that it has two major issues compared to other prestige classes:

1) No real downside/investment: Most prestige classes have enough feat or skill investments that you're giving something up to take them, or the lack of bonus abilities makes it a hard choice if your main class would get cool abilities later. Cleric just gets extra turning and Wizard a couple of extra item feats. You're behind by 3 levels on spell advancement, but that's made up for by the sheer number of spells that you get and you'll still get 9th level spells at level 20. There's no real barrier to entry and no real downside to taking the class.

You are 3 spell levels behind in both casting classes, you still suffer arcane spell failure so you'll probably have to give up your heavy armor (loss from the cleric), you give up the good fort saves of the cleric, you get d4 hit dice (as opposed to the d8 hit die for cleric), and you can't get 9th level spells in both classes by level 20. (Wiz 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 = 15th level Wizard Caster and 15th level Cleric caster, which means 8th level spells in both.). And the lack of 3rd level spells provides a sufficient barrier to entry, as it will be difficult for the character to survive long enough to get into the Prestige Class. Also, unless you invest two feats into Practiced Spellcaster (arcane) and Practicec Spellcaster (divine), you can pretty much forget about penetrating spell resistance.

2) No flavor: Other prestige classes get nifty abilities that are not available through other means. Other prestige classes have backstory that can be somewhat determined just by the array of abilities that they get. Mystic Theurge just gets lots of spells. It's obviously just a system patch for the suckiness of trying to multiclass between two spellcasting classes. There's nothing really *neat* about it other than the dubious benefit of having a ton of spells.

This looks to me like the opportunity for the player to create flavor. Flavor shouldn't have game mechanics IMO.

Obviously the consensus here is that the loss of spell levels is more of a downside than I propose. However, the situations that the party has been in throughout the last three levels (and my style of DMing in general) have been ones where utility spells and buffs, I feel, would be at least as useful as a couple more levels of oomph.

So if the situations the party has been in throughout the last three levels were instead combat encounters with the enemies grouped nicely together and the wizard killed them all with nicely placed fireballs, would that make the wizard overpowered? Your line of reasoning seems to indicate yes.

There is usually plenty of time to prepare for challenges and we're still using a lot of stuff from 3.0 including the longer durations on the low-level buffs and the more advantageous version of Haste. Essentially, for a slight decrease in divine spell effectiveness the group would have an entire wizard's spell slots worth of buffs and utility spells (which makes armor not prohibitive).

Ah, so the problem isn't that Mystic Theurge is overpowered, it's that your house rules and gming style make it seem that way.

Honestly, even with the increased buff durations Mystic Theurge isn't as nice as a single classed caster.

You mention that armor won't be prohibitive for buffs (and if you are using the longer durations, I agree), but what, exactly, is your Mystic Theurge doing during combat? Beating the enemy mightily with his Wizardly base attack bonus? Soaking up the hits with his mighty d4 hit dice? Dropping his foes with divine magic (provided said foes don't have magic resistance)?

I know it seems I'm picking on you, and rest assured that I'm not, but if your only real complaint is that he can cast a bunch of buffs to make the party more effective in combat, do you also outlaw the Bard?

 

[IcyCool]

Im pretty sure that they indeed can wear armor... as they've gained the proficiency from the cleric class, they just don't get further proficiency.

Sure, you can still wear your clerical heavy armor, but you still suffer arcane spell failure for your wizard spells.

Well u guys conviced me that he isn't overpowered at the low levels... what about epic levels... where you can keep taking it, as it is a 10 levels prestige class... Are they still balanced there?

Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't advance both casting classes at every level. They alternate. So your first Epic Mystic Theurge level increases your arcane spells and casting level, the second level increases your divine, the third increases your arcane, etc.

 

[Goolpsy]

ah okay, thx. I don't have the 3.5 DMG so... Seems fair then i guess.

 

[Storm Raven]

Obviously the consensus here is that the loss of spell levels is more of a downside than I propose. However, the situations that the party has been in throughout the last three levels (and my style of DMing in general) have been ones where utility spells and buffs, I feel, would be at least as useful as a couple more levels of oomph. There is usually plenty of time to prepare for challenges and we're still using a lot of stuff from 3.0 including the longer durations on the low-level buffs and the more advantageous version of Haste. Essentially, for a slight decrease in divine spell effectiveness the group would have an entire wizard's spell slots worth of buffs and utility spells (which makes armor not prohibitive).

Three caster levels is a pretty big hit. It lowers your durations, it lowers your ability to defeat SR, it lowers the damage of spells, their area, their ranges, and so on. Effectively (because you are casting lower level spells) it lowers the save DCs of your spells. Half the time you are two spell levels behind, the other half, "only" one. Look at the list of 3rd level wizard and cleric spells. Now look at the list of 5th level wizard and cleric spells. Is it worth giving up 1-2 5th level cleric spells, and 2-3 4th level cleric spells for an additional 1-2 3rd level wizard spells, and additional 3-4 2nd level wizard spells, and 4+ 1st level wizard spells?

On the cleric side, you also lose d8 Hit Dice, good Fortitude saves, the ability to freely cast spells in armor (since your arcane spells suffer arcane failure chances), the ability to effectviely turn undead. You probably also suffer a severe impariment in the use of your domain powers, since many of those are affected by your cleric class levels. From the wizard side, you give up bonus feats and familiar advancement.

Not that any of that would be particularly damning, if the class was more styalistically evocative. It just feels like what it is; a patch on the limitation of trying to multiclass between spellcasting classes. I'd be willing to consider classes with similar abilities if they were just cooler.

The stylistic aspect can be solved by creating a background for the class in the campaign. While the raw material in the DMG is very vanilla, you can work with it to put something interesting in your campaign. For example, in my campaign, all Mystic Theurges are drawn from a specific sect of priests devoted to the archangel Jophiel, who is the archangel of knowledge, and magical mysteries. They are his enforcement arm, his crusaders who fight for causes dear to his sect's ideals. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with alternative ideas for any number of campaign set-ups. In FR, they seem perfect for the various "magic related" deities; using classic mythos, they could be devotees of Hecate (for Olympian deities), or Odin (for norse deities) and so on.