D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[Immoralkickass]

Every once in a while there will be guys like the OP's player that believe himself to be a super smartass. "Its impossible! No logical way this can happen! I have done all the calculations, math, in all possible scenarios! It just cannot be done!"

Well, hold my dice, I say. If you don't want to believe dragons can be defeated, then you go fight goblins and kobolds all your adventuring life. Meanwhile we will be having fun here hunting dragons, because its a fantasy game, we have magic and awesome magic items, and size is not even that big of a deal. What does it do other than take up more space on the map and have more reach?

But like another guy said, failure of imagination. If you cannot imagine it happening, it won't happen for you. But then why are you playing a fantasy game if not to fantasize?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Humans are very good at working out ways to murder large, dangerous creatures. Dragons are intelligent, so that helps them, but they're also solitary, and typically have no spies/enforcers/guards (or few guards) to keep them safe, and no massive entrenched cultural and legal system to protect them (unlike, say, feudal lords), and they get tired, need to sleep, eat, drink, and so on.

So from a realistic perspective, if dragons bother humans, humans will work out ways to murder them. They might not hunt them (not without special equipment), but they'll come up with something. GoT did it to death, but specifically-designed ballistas (need good ability to elevate aim) would be a serious threat in many cases (albeit at much shorter ranges than GoT had - but D&D dragons can't repeatedly shoot fire the way GoT ones can).

From a game perspective, clearly dragons can be killed, because they are killed, and often by small groups of adventurers. So the difficulty isn't that they can't be killed, it's that the person involved is hyping how tough they are to the point where he can't believe it. Typically to kill a larger, older dragon, adventurers need planning, luck, and a good deal of magic. It's not easy. Size-wise, it's more like being killed by a group of rats or something. Could semi-humanoid rats with sharp knives kill a man with a full-body suit of armour (with weak points)? Probably. D&D doesn't simulate bleed-out and wear-down which I think would be real issues for a dragon in a more realistic scenario. I doubt most dragons can fly all day, for example, and there's no reason to believe they don't need to sleep. They could probably be pushed into exhaustion. It's not like they're easy to hide or hard to spot if they're flying cross-country.

 

[jgsugden]

A person can't lift a car unless they have the right tools.

A hero can't kill a dragon unless they have the right tools. If you send a huge dragon against 1st level PC, they'll almost assuredly die. If you give them better tools, however, as they advance in level, the fight becomes more and more fair.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

But the average person is not a tactical genius either.
Not to mention, the OP mentioned dragons with toes the size of people. That is not RAW either, many people treat their dragons as beast RAW or not.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

DnD is a game of Mythic heroes. The rules (and expectations of the game, as evidenced in all settings and adventures) reflect this.

...

They are the X-Men or the Avengers.

That is great .... for you. Which is why, despite you being manifestly wrong (IMO), I do not go to your house, slap the dice out of your hand, pee on your table, and demand that you play Champions instead.

I would start with what I hope is a banal observation; as the 500 lb gorilla in the FRPG market, D&D means different things to different people. So for someone (like you) to say that this is what D&D is (your emphasis) can be downright obnoxious to people who play a different way. What, are you saying that, since I don't play in the same way that you do, I am not playing "real D&D?" I certainly hope not, because I am not about to let you come into my house and pee on my table.

I would go from there to further state that "D&D" as a term encompasses both a lot of different rules (OD&D, B/X, 1e are all "D&D"), a lot of settings (Dark Sun is just as mush "D&D" as is Ghost Walk or Lankhmar or Blackmoor or Nentir Vale or Mahasarpa).

Finally, even if you constrain yourself to 5e, there is a remarkable variance of play as we see from these boards. I know it's truly unfashionable to bring it up, but you've read the DMG, right? Those are rules just like anything else in 5e ... it's even a core book! And it's quite easy to fashion a hardcore game just using the DMG in 5e; let alone temper expectations that every character is ready to put the smackdown on Thanos, and the gods themselves will tremble when your 6th level PC snaps their fingers.

Again- some people like pure, escapist, fantasy, devoid of real consequence where you don't fear the Balrogs; you just kill 'em and take their stuff on the way to deciding what powers you get when you level up. That's cool! But try to refrain from telling everyone else that they are playing it wrong if they don't feel like using the D&D rules to emulate Marvel FASERIP.

 

[Fenris-77]

If we're going to having table-peeing Roshambo I want video or it didn't happen. Also, my enormous collection of OSR materials says hi.

 

[MGibster]

Of course dragons can be defeated. Human beings have been rather good at killing animals we have no business defeating in combat. And while dragons should be more difficult to kill than a bear it should be possible. You just have to use the right tool for the job.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Ultimately if your table finds the idea of mere mortals defeating godlike dragons unthinkable I'd not put Dragons in there unless they are a plot device. At most tables dragons aren't gods, are killable, and are killed. If its more fun to have the players match wits that's awesome. Of if it becomes some complex skill based challenge go for it.

Just on this note I'm hitting them with a wandering dragon encounter tonight. Mid sized green adult. Random dragon encounters. Oh yeah. They already took out a white in their trip to the lands of the Ice Barbarians, time for some more. Not the epic huge Red that hunts this part of the coast though.

 

[Maxperson]

Aragorn runs away from a Balrog. DnD characters stab it to death with pointy things and take its boots.

To be fair, if D&D characters were in Middle Earth, they would run from the Balrog as well. Aragorn was pretty high level. He took command of an undead army, honed his skills for 70 years before Lord of the Rings, and more.

 

[billd91]

Aragorn runs away from a Balrog. DnD characters stab it to death with pointy things and take its boots.

That depends, doesn't it? D&D characters who aren't powerful enough who try to stab the balrog to death will die in droves (with their players, hopefully, becoming the wiser). Aragorn can credibly be built as an 8th-10th level character. Running from a balrog/balor is the smart move on his part even in D&D.