Is "Old School" Overrated?
- Thread starter weem
- Start date
Hazardous?!? Dude, a little perspective...
We are discussing specific sub-genre definitions within a niche hobby. The readership is a subset of one modest messageboard's worth of people within that hobby. There is no significant chance that there will be any palpable harm to anyone.
The only hazard I see right now is that someone might mistake an internet discussion board for Serious Business.
You know, that statement would have been useful if anyone here had argued such a thing.
I in no way deny that multiple play styles exist. Never have. I deny that the specific terms "Old School" and "New School" as used around these parts, are discernible playstyles. I deny that the terms are constructively chosen, or even particularly descriptive of the style differences that actually exist to be useful as a mnemonic. And I deny that the terms have served constructive purpose in practical use around here.
I am seeing a pattern of vast overstatement - multiple times in this thread, and in the last time we discussed the matter. You repeatedly try to enlarge the scope of the argument. When I have a problem with two terms, you say I have an issue with language as a whole. When I have an issue with two terms, I am denying the very existence of variation in playstyles.
I suggest you rethink your approach. Discard this rhetorical mode, for something a bit more... grounded in what is actually said.
Melan
Explorer
I'm afraid I have to disagree, for three reasons.
1. The nostalgia claim hasn't been debunked so much as its been attacked as unethical and insulting. There is no logical connection between "I find that insulting" and "that is incorrect."
2. I feel a nostalgic connection to my olden days with the Rules Cyclopedia. It is possible that I am a statistically anomalous freak of nature, but I have little reason to believe this to be likely.
3. One of the more common complaints about retro clones is that they often include older game mechanics that are not actually optimum for what they are intended to accomplish. I tend to agree with this complaint. It seems at times that newer, better ways of accomplishing the same things have been developed, but not always adopted by the retro clone community. This would be most easily explained by an emotional connection to the trappings of older games.
I recognize that these are human issues and unsuited for clear, objective proof. I cannot reach into the brains of the retro game community as a whole and extract absolute truth about their emotions. It is possible that, for example, someone might objectively and impartially hold the opinion that THAC0 is more elegant and usable than other possible systems. I cannot reach into the brain of this hypothetical example person and determine their motivations for holding this view. I simply find it implausible that they hold it for strictly logical and impartial reasons, due largely to my knowledge of multiple mechanical systems in multiple games, and my asssessment of the general awkwardness of THAC0 in comparison. As before, I cannot reach objective truth on these sorts of estimations. I also do not intend to be bullied on the subject by ridiculous bluster about the alleged insult of claiming that people sometimes hold nostalgic connections to the pasttimes of their childhood.
Additionally, when the question is whether retro games are overrated, the nature of people's attachment to them is germane. In fact, it is the entire subject matter. So in spite of the general reticience to speculate as to other's motives on these boards, I tend to feel that this sort of speculation in this specific instance should either be permitted, or the entire subject locked.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Presumes a dichotomy where there is none.
Where is the cutoff point between "automobile" and "lion"?
RC
diaglo
Adventurer
Oryan77
Adventurer
Oh believe me, Old School D&D is definitely overrated.
1. 3e & 4e players don't flip out and run off into cave systems like Tom Hanks does.
2. When is the last time your female players hung themselves because her character died?
3. The only good D&D comic strips back in the day were Jack Chick comics. Now we have OOTS comics that are so well drawn that they make characters in Jack Chicks comics look like stick figures.
3. Nobody made a D&D movie during the Golden Years. But the newer generation was graced with an awesome D&D movie and then a sequel that was so good it even bypassed DVD and went straight to TV!
4. Back in the day, I had to sit around a gaming store just so I could hang out and talk about D&D with a bunch of smelly, hairy, & overweight old men. Now I get to post online in the comfort of my home and talk about D&D with a bunch of smelly, hairy, & overweight old men.
5. During the Old School years, the only women in the house while we played D&D were our moms. Now moms are playing D&D!
6. In the 70's, all the players had that gawd awful thick porno mustache & wore shorts that were much too short. Now players sport the cooler looking neck-beard & even wear tight fitting belly shirts that aren't really belly shirts.
I mean, I could go on and on about how Old School D&D is overrated...
1. 3e & 4e players don't flip out and run off into cave systems like Tom Hanks does.
2. When is the last time your female players hung themselves because her character died?
3. The only good D&D comic strips back in the day were Jack Chick comics. Now we have OOTS comics that are so well drawn that they make characters in Jack Chicks comics look like stick figures.
3. Nobody made a D&D movie during the Golden Years. But the newer generation was graced with an awesome D&D movie and then a sequel that was so good it even bypassed DVD and went straight to TV!
4. Back in the day, I had to sit around a gaming store just so I could hang out and talk about D&D with a bunch of smelly, hairy, & overweight old men. Now I get to post online in the comfort of my home and talk about D&D with a bunch of smelly, hairy, & overweight old men.
5. During the Old School years, the only women in the house while we played D&D were our moms. Now moms are playing D&D!
6. In the 70's, all the players had that gawd awful thick porno mustache & wore shorts that were much too short. Now players sport the cooler looking neck-beard & even wear tight fitting belly shirts that aren't really belly shirts.
I mean, I could go on and on about how Old School D&D is overrated...
Raven Crowking
First Post
Errmmm.....Likewise? "Hazard is the potential for harmful effects. Hazardous means potentially harmful."
Despite your disclaimer about "palpable harm" EN World contains (in The Rules) all sorts of provisions to avoid harm to others while posting. Deciding that what you either don't understand (i.e., if you really cannot understand what is meant by OS) or what you do not like should not be discussed definitely causes harm.
Far moreso when it is coming from a moderator.
A thing does not have to cause bodily harm to cause harm. Your ad hominem response to my post notwithstanding.
If you deny that the specific term "Old School" represents something discernable to the speaker, that is desultory denial, and is grounded in exactly what you have said. Take your pick - either you understand it and you think it is bad, or you don't understand it, and are not in a position to judge.
If you understand it, by definition, there must be some meaning which is being understood.
RC
Last edited:
Scribble
First Post
The idea of oldschool vrs newschool is describing ways to design/play RPGs, and in the case of D&D the same RPG- nothing like autos and lions... So tone down the snark. Thanks.
If there IS a use to the two terms then there would obviously be some sort of cutoff (though it might be somewhat flexible) between them.
Raven Crowking
First Post
That isn't snark. You either didn't read the post you were responding to, or I failed to state clearly enough what I was saying. So I repeated/made clearer.
My post you responded to included:
A dichotomy requires, by definition, that there by an opposing and mutually exclusive distinction between the terms. The terms can have value, and be used, without accepting any such division. Indeed, there is a great deal of difference between saying "there is no dichotomy" and "there is no division".
I disagree with your premise that there must be some sort of cutoff between the terms to make them useful.
RC
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