Pathfinder 1E Is Paizo the new Palladium? (It isn't!)

[Walking Dad]

Dear Mr Jakobs,

I think Paizo is doing a great job with Pathfinder and the PRD. It is a widely appreciated product. I always use the PRD first for my online gaming (much more handy than my actual books) before looking up the "missing" parts on the other site


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This 'worship' might be a little silly, but so long as it doesn't spill over into attacks on other RPGs, basically benign. Harassing people because of it is hostile and unfriendly.

I have trouble to understand you.
Hostile and unfriendly to people for liking another system or say something against ones favorite (or making even a math-grounded critic on the system)?
Hostile and unfriendly to the same, if you dislike this behavior?

Despite all your protests, or in part because of them, I really do see this thread as your attempt to take down those 'worshippers' a notch or two.

In so far that I "reduced" Paizo (should have been Pathfinder, as TheAuldGrump pointed out) to a "normal" company (system see above) by relating it to another?
Yes, it could be on a subconscious level. But it was really only me, standing on the bus stop, thinking about RPG, old and new, and making odd connections in my mind (which proofed to be mostly not to well-grounded, sorry).

As a personal attack against anyone? No.

 

[gamerprinter]

WD, I think the problem is Palladium has a bad reputation to a large part of the market, partly because they don't listen to their fanbase, they don't update their rules. So because you are implying that Paizo and Palladium are similar - many of the responders are assuming you mean that Paizo has a bad reputation, that they don't listen to their fanbase and do not update their rules. Which is the complete opposite to how Paizo works.

Paizo is arguably the RPG publisher that listens to their fanbase the most - not the least.

Some percentage of Pathfinder critics think that Paizo should have come up with a completely different new set of rules, rather than a 'tweaked' version of 3.5. Not only do I think that would have been a great mistake by Paizo, if they came up with a different game - I would not be playing Pathfinder, if that is what they had done.

At best Paizo does not equal Palladium - which is the heart of some of the animosity to your OP. Palladium equals bad publisher in many eyes. This makes comparing the two insulting to Paizo fans. I don't think this was your intention, but it's the only way fans can read your OP.

 

[DonTadow]

Statistically Pathfinder is the best selling RPG right now, a distinction that Palladium has never had. I find the first point of the OP's argument invalid and without any documentation other than his own opinion.

 

[prosfilaes]

Hostile and unfriendly to the same, if you dislike this behavior?

To say that someone likes a company too much that you need to criticize them just for liking the company is hostile.

Yes, it could be on a subconscious level. But it was really only me, standing on the bus stop, thinking about RPG, old and new, and making odd connections in my mind (which proofed to be mostly not to well-grounded, sorry).

I make odd connections between current political parties and previous political parties and their leaders and previous leaders, but even in political forums I try not to make them, because they'll produce more heat than light. You drew heat because your original post acted defensive, making it look like you knew that you would offend people.

 

[Walking Dad]

I read enough hate responses to Pathfinder system critic. The responses are somehow also often bashing D&D 4e, even if it is never mentioned before. I criticize people who do that.

The second part is true, but what would be the web without sharing ones opinion?
And anything that could even hint a critic on this forum, epically regarding Pathfinder or 4e, quickly causes a lot of people to be offended.

 

[gamerprinter]

I read enough hate responses to Pathfinder system critic.

I don't think one can be critical of any game system and not expect some extremist to respond in a less than helpful way. There's always going to be haters in any discussion on a public forum. You can't get away from that (I wouldn't let yourself worry about that, just concentrate on the reasonable answers). You can talk about sports, politics, religion - any subject and somebody will give a hate response at some point, it can't be avoided. But you needn't dwell on the haters.

The responses are somehow also often bashing D&D 4e, even if it is never mentioned before. I criticize people who do that.

While I certainly mentioned 4e in one of my posts, 4e is an update to the D&D rules, so I still think it belongs in the discussion, along with Trailblazer, GURPS, M&M, Pathfinder and many other rule sets, as each are an update to the D&D rules in some measure.

You shouldn't discount out of hand any responses that mention 4e, as it is indeed part of the discussion, or at least should be.

The second part is true, but what would be the web without sharing ones opinion? And anything that could even hint a critic on this forum, epically regarding Pathfinder or 4e, quickly causes a lot of people to be offended.

You have a right to your opinion, which could be very different from others, and there's nothing wrong with that.

However, you did use the word 'worshippers' regarding PF fans, which is an insulting word. Just because someone is a fan of a given game system, does not make them worshippers. (I can honestly say, I worship nothing - not even a deity.) I also prefer PF over 4e, but I don't hate 4e - in fact I don't hate any game. I see 'game hate' as an unreasonable position to be in for anyone, so it would be best that you leave those kinds of responders out of the conversation, as they offer nothing helpful.

Looking over these posts in this thread, it seems most are being reasonable (some aren't, but those few needn't poison the discussion).

As an aside, I do have Trailblazer which I purchased before purchasing PF, however, having read both sets of rules, while Trailblazer offers some interesting points, PF is closer to the rules update that I prefer.

What are you expecting or hoping to resolve from this discussion, WalkingDad?

 

[Walking Dad]

However, you did use the word 'worshippers' regarding PF fans, which is an insulting word.

Just to be clear, I dislike 'worshippers' in any fancrowd, not only PF.

And I never wanted to say that all PF fans are 'worshippers'.

And yes, it was meant as an insult, but not targeted at the people it maybe sounded like. I apologize to any 'normal' fan (which would include me) who thought I wanted to insult him/her.

 

[gamerprinter]

Understand, that I don't think your intent in this or any thread to be among the 'haters' of the game world.

Extremists use inflammatory language in many cases. Words like 'worshippers' and 'haters' are very inflammatory. There are forums other than ENWorld, where any criticism of a given game is given the 'hater' qualification, and any positive criticism of a given game which are not the favorite game of given set of extremists are called worshippers. Its not there doesn't exist other states of like and dislike of a game. Its just that extremists use extremist words - that's what they do.

I've been on one forum, where I mentioned an issue with 4e that I had problems with - then was immediately accused of being a 4e hater, because of my issue. Even when I qualified myself as liking the basic 4e game, it was not enough to remove that title given.

If you're not an extremist, I think its best just to avoid extremist terminology - discussions will be better for it.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Speaking from personal experience, extremists are always other people.



WD is a bit of a 4e worshiper. He dislikes it when his faith is called into question, or his tenets are challenged.

I am a bit of an OGL worshiper, 3.X and PFRPG included. But I am not unaware as to how that colors my perceptions.

And when others try to hide/disguise how their own perceptions are colored, I hackle like a rabid hyena get snippy. If someone says that they don't like 'X' then that is fine - we all play our games for fun, if they are having fun with F.A.T.A.L. then they are still having fun, just don't ask me to play.

If they begin claiming that F.A.T.A.L. is inherently superior to Spawn of Fashan then there will likely be words. Most especially if they claim that I am wrong because I enjoy adventure role playing in the realm of West, because it is bad-wrong-fun.

Personally, I am beginning to think that 4e may be the new Vista, splitting the market, and doomed to a shortened support life, but introducing elements that Microsoft WotC is loathe to remove, and with reason....

The Auld Grump, no, PFRPG is not Ubuntu....

 

[DonTadow]

I dropped the mike, why is this discussion still going on .

Seriously, it's not about fanboys defending pathfinder, it's that the comparsion is blatently incorrect. It's like saying, Is Mcdonalds the new Top Hat. (search old detroit hamburger chains). There's no comparison. It's pretty much an insult wrapped in an attempt at discourse. Is the best selling table top game the new only bought in specific circles gaming system.