Is PHB 2 really "Core?"

[Vyvyan Basterd]

What you've presented here is not WotC's definition of core. This may be your interpretation of what 'core' should mean, or the way your group runs things, but Wizards has repeatedly stated that everything is core.

Do you have a source for this?

Checking Amazon:

"Player's Handbook 2: A 4th Edition D&D Core Rulebook"
"Arcane Power: A 4th Edition D&D Supplement "
"Forgotten Realms Player's Guide: A 4th Edition D&D Supplement"

So while Remathilis breaks Supplements into General and Campaign, ge is still correct as far as I can tell about what WotC is promoting as Core.

Edit: Checking the covers on the WotC website:
"Monster Manual 2//Roleplaying Game Core Rules"
"Eberron Player's Guide//Roleplaying Game Supplement"
"Arcane Power//Roleplaying Game Supplement"

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Then imagine the retailer who doesn't really know that a player must have PHB 1 to play the game and stocks only the newer, shinier PHB 2?

I think this is a major misnomer and that it muddies the waters for new players entering a hobby with an already steep learning curve.

I think that people who can determine that they need the PHB I for the DMG 1 and MM 1 to be much use, can probably navigate those waters reasonably well. If a retailer knows that, then they probably can handle the PHB 2, too.

In 1981, with very limited funds, I asked for the Blue Box Expert set for Christmas, thinking that I would simply skip Basic and go straight to Expert. Nothing in the Sears Catalog indicated this would be a problem. Fortunately, my birthday is close enough after Christmas that I didn't need to wait long for a playable game. No matter what you do, someone will make a mistake.

 

[Obryn]

Sadly, the definition of "Core" is one of the key sticking points that ensures EditionWarz can never reach any kind of resolution.

The problem is that, as with so many other things, there are at least two separate defintions for the term. I posted this recently, but will repeat myself.

Core(1) means "This book is essential to play the game." It's more or less a must-have; the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1 all fit this category.

Core(2) means "This book presents options that are not campaign-specific, and which can be dropped into any game" as in "the core game setting." It also implies continued support in later releases.


Basically, the 4e's PHB2 is Core(2), but it is not Core(1). 3e's PHB2 was also Core(2) but not Core(1). You do not need PHB2 to play either edition, it's not a default assumption that every game will include everything from PHB2, and if you don't use PHB2 you aren't playing the game wrong.

-O

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, if you look at WOTC's product page, you get accessory as the main type of product, opposed by novels. In accessory you get various brands broken up into

Core: All books (including power cards)
Dungeons and Dragons: Dungeon tiles and adventures
Miniatures: Well, miniatures, ya know.

And the novels broken up into various subgroups based on setting (Magic the gathering, dragonlance, etc)

So the Wizard's homepage is not much help for this debate, unfortunately.

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I would tend to go with the supplement and core division suggested above. Core is very broad, and I think wizards did that on purpose after seeing all the core-only fanatics in 3.x. They do not want to see people buying three books and playing for 8 years. They want to encourage people to buy more books, which is simply common sense.

As for people being confused, yes, I can see that in big bookstores and online. Especially online. But in a gaming store, I hope it would not be the case. And Wizards states the desire to help the small gaming store, though their efforts do not always bear fruit.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Well, if you look at WOTC's product page, you get accessory as the main type of product, opposed by novels. In accessory you get various brands broken up into

Core: All books (including power cards)
Dungeons and Dragons: Dungeon tiles and adventures
Miniatures: Well, miniatures, ya know.

And the novels broken up into various subgroups based on setting (Magic the gathering, dragonlance, etc)

So the Wizard's homepage is not much help for this debate, unfortunately.

Hmm...They have 2 definitions on their own product page. And another definition on the covers of the books themsleves.

Brand: All of the books except PHB1, DMG1, and MM1 are listed as D&D Core Products.

Type: Only the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1 are listed as Core Rulebooks. Everything else is labelled an Acessory.

Covers: All PHBs, DMGs, and MMs are printed on the front cover as Core. Everything else is printed as Supplement.

No wonder there seem to be 3 different defintions of Core floating around ENWorld!

 

[Keefe the Thief]

See, and i love the continuing stream of corebooks because i never understood why the core of the game wasn´t expanded in corebooks, but in supplements.

 

[Particle_Man]

I thought Core meant they can put in stealth errata like the Expertise feat.

 

[Intense_Interest]

In my world-view, Core means "you can assume pretty much everything in here is plug-and-play". Half-Orc, Gnome. Goliath, Shifter (ack!), Deva. Barbarian, Druid, Bard, Sorcerer. Shaman, Warden, Avenger, Invoker. You can ban these races & classes in the same way you can ban PHB races & classes, but you'll be doing it at the detriment to your ability to include players.

But the "You have to have these to play" means that it is "Base". This means PHB for the combat/character creation/skill chapters and DMG for the XP/Encounter chart and Traps/Monster adjustment & creation. You hardly need the Monster Manual if you feel like riffing your own stuff straight out of the DMG charts.

So really, anyone saying that "Core(1)" is anything other than "Base" is trying to hard, and anyone saying that "Core(2)" Disagrees with their world view is drawing a line in their personal sandbox.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Someone with their books handy can correct me if I'm wrong. But I believe the "What You Need to Play" section also mentions alternatives to the miniatures. Even if it is as simple as "or some other kind of token to represent your character" that would suffice. Of course they're going to plug a product they sell, but IIRC they don't state that the game requires DDM to be played.

Actually, page 9 of the PHB lists four items needed to play: (1) Player's Handbook, (2) Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual for the DM, (3) dice, and (4) character sheet (directs reader to back of the PHB or dndinsider.com).

Then it says, "you might find some of the following items and accessories useful," only then listing miniatures and a battle grid or Dungeon Tiles.

So yes, any claim that 4E is trying to trick people into thinking they need minis or whatnot is not based on what's actually written in the PHB.

 

[DarkMasterBR]

Actually, page 9 of the PHB lists four items needed to play: (1) Player's Handbook, (2) Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual for the DM, (3) dice, and (4) character sheet (directs reader to back of the PHB or dndinsider.com).

Then it says, "you might find some of the following items and accessories useful," only then listing miniatures and a battle grid or Dungeon Tiles.

So yes, any claim that 4E is trying to trick people into thinking they need minis or whatnot is not based on what's actually written in the PHB.

Sorry, I got the source wrong. It's in the DMG, one of the first pages. It says you need a Dungeon Master's Screen and D&D miniatures to play