Is power attack too powerful?

[rkanodia]

Hey ho.

I'm one of the "wonks" that did the optimization math. (It's fun!)

In play, it's true you have to guess the AC of the opponent.....but frankly, that's pretty straightforward. And then you have (printed out in bright, cheery colors!) a graph that shows your optimal PA for each AC. Quite helpful and speedy.

But even this is probably unnecessary; knowing the range of probable ACs your opponent has gives a corresponding error on the PA guess, so it's usually safe enough to estimate, which can be done in a second or two at most.

Example:

"My barbarian charges at the Dire Tiger, and swings his sword. Mumble: (I guess the Dire Tiger's AC is ~ 18, so I power attack for 5.)"

"Hey, hey! I hit! ....and I did 44 hp of damage! ...Err, it's not dead yet, is it?! Oh."

I guess my entire point is, the concept of finding a mathematical optimization for Power Attack seems to fly in the face of what the feat is. I think its application should be something that is decided by the player's feelings, not a formula, and that the rules behind it should reflect that so as not to punish the players who would rather have their barbarians power attack when they are excited/desperate/in a big hurry as opposed to 'whenever it is the mathematically optimal choice'. And just for the record, I'm a CSE major and I love making my do-anything machine solve systems of equations... I just think it generally detracts from the purpose of a role-playing game.

 

[Nail]

Sure.......but each to his own, eh?

Besides, jus' 'cause I optimize it...doesn't mean others have to.

Right?

 

[Korak]

I guess my entire point is, the concept of finding a mathematical optimization for Power Attack seems to fly in the face of what the feat is. I think its application should be something that is decided by the player's feelings, not a formula, and that the rules behind it should reflect that so as not to punish the players who would rather have their barbarians power attack when they are excited/desperate/in a big hurry as opposed to 'whenever it is the mathematically optimal choice'. And just for the record, I'm a CSE major and I love making my do-anything machine solve systems of equations... I just think it generally detracts from the purpose of a role-playing game.

Your interpretation of the feat is as valid as mine. I prefer to think of power attack as an experienced fighter sizing up his opponent and deciding how much power he can add at the expense of accuracy based on his opponent's skill.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

mainly, in a mounted charge with a 2-handed weapon. (doubly so if your prestige class=cavalier) monstrous, sick amounts of damage possible. doubly so when combined with Power Lunge and a potion (or other item) of True Strike. Truly, truly hideous.

True Strike is a first level Wiz/Sor spell with no Somatic component. Don't bother with the questionably legal True Strike items (particularly one-shot items like potions)... if you have a Charisma of at least 11 (12 is better), take one level of Sorceror. You'll be able to drop it three times per day with the same opportunity cost, without the massive gold cost.

If you take your first level as Sorceror (for the boost to K: Arcana), it's also a good set-up for Dragon Disciple, which will give you Bonus Spells (more True Strike!), higher Strength, and more benefits.

And, this is all perfectly legal, unlike potions of True Strike or other questionable items.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I don't think 3.5 power attack is unblanced, per se, but I don't like the way it seems to make other fighter builds undesirable. I can't see why a warrior-type wouldn't go the two-handed weapon route. Offensive melee power goes up faster than defense, particularly if you play closer to the core rules. A mid-level fighter can use power attack fairly regularly in the games I've seen.

I think that 3.5 PA is [another] example of 3.5 working against its own design. In some ways the rules are set up to make a host of different character 'styles' viable [specifically combat-viable], and in others they seem to herd players into very specific builds.

I see your point but it does depend a lot on the style of encounters your DM throws at you and the array of builds in the party. Average damage is not necessarily the best measure of a melee grunt's effectiveness.

The high offense low defense path is actually hazardous to your PC's long term health without good teamwork in your party.

 

[Kershek]

True Strike is a first level Wiz/Sor spell with no Somatic component. Don't bother with the questionably legal True Strike items (particularly one-shot items like potions)... if you have a Charisma of at least 11 (12 is better), take one level of Sorceror. You'll be able to drop it three times per day with the same opportunity cost, without the massive gold cost.

If you take your first level as Sorceror (for the boost to K: Arcana), it's also a good set-up for Dragon Disciple, which will give you Bonus Spells (more True Strike!), higher Strength, and more benefits.

And, this is all perfectly legal, unlike potions of True Strike or other questionable items.

It's also available as a 1st level domain spell for a cleric with the Time domain (Forgotten Realms). I have a cleric of Grumbar with the Metal and Time domains and it has been quite useful in combination with Power Attack. Since the 2nd level domain spell is Gentle Repose (and Metal's is Heat Metal, which is only useful in limited circumstances), a lot of times I just prepare True Strike for both levels.

 

[swrushing]

in the olde days, for a single swing THF PA was effective when your chances to hit (how many hits you expect out of 20 swings) exceeded your expected damage per hit without PA. Your optimal PA shift was half the difference. Same as now for non-THF.

In the new days with 2h weapons its now effective when the chances to hit exceed HALF the expected damage without PA. Your optimal shift is still about halfway the difference between the hits and half damage.

For multiple swings, in general, balance it at the middle swing.

The degree to which those types of encounters occur depends on the enemies and circumstances.

Troll and giants fit the bill of "easy to hit but low ac" and if they are the predominant threat your Gm throws PA will be extremely useful and probably it will be seen as perhsp overpowered for the THF guys.

On the other hand, classed NPCs tend to have higher ACs and fewer HP s these guys tend to make the hit chances lower and PA less effective. if these are the predominant threats the Gm scenarios at the players, PA will likely be seen as weak, perhaps even underpowered.

As with all things thatr have inherent and meaningful tradeoffs, "balance" translates to scenario choice made by GM.

 

[Darklone]

Trolls with armour are easy to hit ?

 

[Old Gumphrey]

..

and a potion (or other item) of True Strike.

Potions of True Strike are impossible under 3.5 core rules. Check out the "Brew Potion" feat.

As was said, True Strike "items" are shaky at best. The one level of sorcerer doesn't work especially well, unless you like having either arcane spell failure or really low AC; and if your goal is to get in melee and deal a lot of damage neither option is very desirable.

 

[Caliban]

Potions of True Strike are impossible under 3.5 core rules. Check out the "Brew Potion" feat.

As was said, True Strike "items" are shaky at best. The one level of sorcerer doesn't work especially well, unless you like having either arcane spell failure or really low AC; and if your goal is to get in melee and deal a lot of damage neither option is very desirable.

True strike has no somatic component, so no arcane spell failure to worry about.