Is power attack too powerful?

[Mac Callum]

I'm surprised no one had mentioned Combat Brute [Tactical Feat] from Complete Warrior. The Momentum Swing allows you to increase THF PA to +3 Dmg. per -1 Att. after a Charge. What does that do to the math?

 

[Tatsukun]

Interesting. All of the options allowed under maintaining clarity are already options when raging under the core rules. There's nothing in the Rage description in the PHB to indicate that a barbarian cannot differentiate between friend and foe, for example.

Yeah, the DM and I read Righteous Wrath as not doing much as written. It really seems aimed at a frenzy, rather than a rage. So, we tacked on that you can use any feat / skill during a rage (but not a frenzy). It seems to work fine so far (my PC has nearly died several times, so I don't think he is overpowered).

-Tatsu

 

[kwiqsilver]

I'm glad I read about Righteous Wrath here. If I can talk my DM into allowing it to apply to Frenzy (he's pretty logical, so he probably will), I'm going to have my Brb4/Ftr2/Frenzied Berserker 1, who'll be debuting at the next game, take it. I did take Iron Will (+10 Will save for a L7 Barbarian is pretty good!), so when I'm raging and frenzying I can cancel the frenzy on an eight or better.
I also used the rules in the back of the DMG to create a magic item that casts Lesser Restoration 5/Day. When I end my Rage-Frenzy, I'll be exhausted, but two rounds later, I'll be fine.
It's my first Barbarian character ever, and only my second two handed weapon user. I usually play arcanists, finesse types, or rogues, so this will be an interesting stretch.

 

[Tessarael]

My main problem with Power Attack is the possibility of having a TWF guy with Improved C-Expertise, high shield bonus with Improved Buckler Defense, using two Bastard Swords and fighting defensively with 7 attacks at full Power Attack for insane AC and still nice average damage because he only hits on a 20 anyways...

Arghhh. Begin rant ...

I hate hate hate this method of using Power Attack. As the mechanic stands, it seems they wanted to give you the ability do extra damage versus low AC opponents. However, vs. a high AC opponent, Power Attack is also very good. As a DM, I would not allow this. That said, I'm in a campaign where it does occur, and it's a valid tactic: e.g. Troll Fighters power attacking to do some not insignificant damage vs. a high AC buffed Fighter/Wizard. Maybe I should employ the same tactic as a player until the GM gets tired of it? Mind you, most of those times the monsters might be better off just going for a grapple. (And I don't like grapple either, but that's another story. )

Frankly, the thing I most dislike about Power Attack is that the mechanic is very complicated as to when it is useful. Moreover, it is somewhat misleading and people misuse it.

If you want to give two-handed weapons more damage, I'd far prefer to see a feat like:
Two-Handed Weapon Focus: you do +2 damage with two-handed weapons. Simple mechanic, you know when it applies, and when it doesn't. You can't rort it vs. the high AC guys.

Now if you want a more complicated mechanic that works vs. low AC guys, I would do something like this:

Power Attack: if your attack bonus exceeds their AC by 20, you do extra damage of (attack bonus - AC - 20), or double this with a two-handed weapon. (Or something along these lines, you could make it attack bonus -10, for similar effect.)

That's not as good as the current power attack, but it does get rid of the high AC rorting, and it does simplify how it works (GM tells you the opponent's AC and you either do extra damage on some of your attacks or not).

Just my (ranting) thoughts ...

 

[frisbeet]

Nice Average Damage When Only A 20 Hits Is An Oxymoron

Holy Cow, I hate this myth (see subject heading).

Here's how the example level 12 fighter (24 Str, bunch of GS feats, +3 GS, full attack) I posted on page 2 does with no PA vs. max PA against ACs:

AC   no PA Dam   PA  PA Dam  
44	6.66	12	7.56
45	5.16	12	7.56
46	3.78	12	7.56
47	3.78	12	7.56
48	3.78	12	7.56
49	3.78	12	7.56
50	3.78	12	7.56

So it's double damage in this case. Double CRAPPY average damage. Your best bet: run away if you need a 20 to hit.

edit: calculations corrected as of 3/22. Had parameterized GS as doing an extra 3 damage/hit, which is silly. Architecture of spreadsheet remains unchanged.

 

[frisbeet]

So it's double damage in this case. Double CRAPPY average damage. Your best bet: run away if you need a 20 to hit.

Or, get to know the touch attack side of your character/party. Max power attack ain't the answer.

 

[Darklone]

But max Power Attack (with all the other Expertise AC boost stuff) is the answer if you got some archers and wizards as backup and you're the fighter with insane AC at the front who keeps the big bad baddy in the line of fire.

It won't help a lot, but it's fun. Sick, crazy, but fun.

 

[Belbarrus]

In the game I run, one of the players is playing a level 9 Barbarian with 22 Strength (when Raging his strength goes to 26) and a +1 Keen Greatsword. Had Heroisom on as well (+2 to hit). In the first round against a 15 HD monster with 20 AC (at the time), the character raged and attacked twice, power attacking for full, getting criticals on both hits.

Normal: To hit: +18/+13 / Damage: 2d6 + 9 + 1 = 2d6 + 10
Raging: To Hit: +20/+15 / +Damage: 2d6 + 12 + 1 = 2d6 + 13
Power: To Hit: +11/+6 / Damage: 2d6 + 12 + 1 + 18 = 2d6 + 31
Critical Damage from two hits: 8d6 + 124 = 156 damage.

That was a pretty sick amount of damage


B

 

[kwiqsilver]

That was a pretty sick amount of damage

You should suggest he look at The Frenzied Berserker in the Complete Warrior.
Frenzying adds another 6 points to strength (10 after a few levels)...and at higher level, you get 3:1 and 4:1 two handed power attack.
I planned one out to 20th level. With a Fullblade, I'll do 2d8 +18 (Strength) + 80!! on a full power attack. It's sick and twisted. But that's at full power attack, so +13/+13/+8/+3/-2 on attack rolls.

 

[James McMurray]

Get Shock Trooper (CW) so you can apply the PA penalty to AC instead of to hit. When you are in a deathless frenzy and your foe is in pieces on the loor, who cares what your AC is?