Is Resource Management “Fun?”

[rmcoen]

That was just a quick Google example I found. Didn't want to break out the 4e books...!

 

[Staffan]

Unless its not about balance, but about what makes symbolic sense for the spell.

Symbolic sense and/or puns. I mean, the material component for ESP/detect thoughts is 1 cp – literally a penny for your thoughts. And silent image is some wool cloth, because you're either about to pull the wool over someone's eyes or fleece them.

I don't remember Martial Powers that worked that way; generally people just took the best weapon for the job. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that weapon choice was mostly "get +3 proficiency or Brutal" with the people I played with.

It was mainly a fighter thing. Basically, instead of fighters specializing in a weapon by getting a numerical bonus when fighting with that weapon, they would specialize by taking powers that gained additional benefits with that type of weapon.

 

[James Gasik]

It was mainly a fighter thing. Basically, instead of fighters specializing in a weapon by getting a numerical bonus when fighting with that weapon, they would specialize by taking powers that gained additional benefits with that type of weapon.

Right, I get that, it's just, I played a few Fighters in 4e, and I don't recall ever selecting a Power for it's cool weapon type bonus, though obviously some did exist. Some of this was apparently to support the other Fighter builds, but I don't recall seeing those used as often as the vanilla version.

I'm pretty sure Invigorating was useful, but people in my area apparently didn't think it was as cool as say, the Warden.

 

[Pedantic]

The best d20 take on weapon choice that mattered was Fantasy Craft, and it achieved it with weapon hierarchies. Melee weapons were either Edged or Blunt, and that was the level you took proficiency in them.

After that, the game presented 6 subcategories, like Axes, Fencing Blades, Knives, Swords, Greatswords, Polearms and Spears, all of which contained at least 5 weapons, all of which had different properties. Feats and other abilities focused on the subcategory, so you had Axe Basics, Axe Mastery and Axe Expertise. Each feat was made up of a passive bonus when using those weapons, and an active "trick" that you could use to modify a combat action, and usually 1 stance somewhere in there, all of which applied to any weapon in the set.

The most iconic is probably Knife Basics, which gave you the ability "all knives on your person are considered armed at all times" which meant you were absolutely going to carry every knife you found, particularly a main gauche, as it provided a defensive bonus when armed.

This then was combined with an extensive weapon customization system, that allowed you to craft weaponry with yet more modifiers.

 

[rmcoen]

Yes, this is what martials should have, which would compare to casters. You have your preferred spells, and different ones for different situations; I have my preferred weapons, and also different ones for different situations!

I had a 2e dwarf rogue that specialized in TWF with his shortswords... but he carried "Grandpa's Axe" on his back at all times, for dealing with ogres, giants, and other Large creatures. He sucked with it, but mechanically, it did offer a d12 Knockdown die that came in handy a few times. It worked. In 5e, meh, 2d6 vs. 1d12, no reason to use the axe except flavor.

 

[James Gasik]

The best d20 take on weapon choice that mattered was Fantasy Craft, and it achieved it with weapon hierarchies. Melee weapons were either Edged or Blunt, and that was the level you took proficiency in them.

After that, the game presented 6 subcategories, like Axes, Fencing Blades, Knives, Swords, Greatswords, Polearms and Spears, all of which contained at least 5 weapons, all of which had different properties. Feats and other abilities focused on the subcategory, so you had Axe Basics, Axe Mastery and Axe Expertise. Each feat was made up of a passive bonus when using those weapons, and an active "trick" that you could use to modify a combat action, and usually 1 stance somewhere in there, all of which applied to any weapon in the set.

The most iconic is probably Knife Basics, which gave you the ability "all knives on your person are considered armed at all times" which meant you were absolutely going to carry every knife you found, particularly a main gauche, as it provided a defensive bonus when armed.

This then was combined with an extensive weapon customization system, that allowed you to craft weaponry with yet more modifiers.

There were a few oddities in FC though. Weapons that inflicted other types of damage, like Stress, didn't really synergize with what other characters were doing, and then you had wacky things too (I want to say Skeletons were immune to hammers? I might be remembering that wrong).

 

[Pedantic]

There were a few oddities in FC though. Weapons that inflicted other types of damage, like Stress, didn't really synergize with what other characters were doing, and then you had wacky things too (I want to say Skeletons were immune to hammers? I might be remembering that wrong).

Eh, yes and no. Stress/Subdual inflicted the Fatigued/Shaken condition (you rolled a saving through vs. the damage, and if you failed your damage total reset and you increased your grade of the condition), which killed you if they got over 5, but inflicted pretty severe mounting penalties on their own, and that was only relevant for "special" foes. "Standard" foes, which are sort of like 4e minion, but slightly hardier, treat all damage the same anyway.

Stress damage was super rare on weapons though, that was usually more about intimidation/insults/supernatural fear.

Skeleton thing was a real mistake though (undead are immune to subdual damage as a part of the creature type), discussion on the old FC forums generally agreed the template should have had a trait that converted any subdual damage into lethal damage.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, this is what martials should have, which would compare to casters. You have your preferred spells, and different ones for different situations; I have my preferred weapons, and also different ones for different situations!

I had a 2e dwarf rogue that specialized in TWF with his shortswords... but he carried "Grandpa's Axe" on his back at all times, for dealing with ogres, giants, and other Large creatures. He sucked with it, but mechanically, it did offer a d12 Knockdown die that came in handy a few times. It worked. In 5e, meh, 2d6 vs. 1d12, no reason to use the axe except flavor.

Level Up has a lot more weapon properties, and I added a bunch in my homebrew. My consolidated equipment guide is off the proverbial hook!

 

[Indaarys]

One of my favorite games of all time is DayZ. Its at times described as a walking simulator, and for good reason, as you do in fact spend a lot of time walking and running around with nothing much happening.

And part of the gameplay loop is looting; you need to get stuff to survive and stuff to help you get other stuff you need to survive, and all of it has limited usage, meaning you can't just get one and call it a day.

So you're always running around, looting stuff, and repeating constantly, forever.

But that isn't all there is to the game and how it plays out, because between the atmosphere of the game and the simple fragility of life, those long bouts of basically nothing contribute to the relatively short bouts of a whole of something being incredibly intense.

Running into another Survivor in DayZ, or triggering a zombie horde or a pack of wolves, is no laughing matter, even when you're fully geared. In fact, even a person whose fully decked out in military gear has to be wary of approaching unknown bambis, players who just spawned, because all they strictly need to end your life is a can of beans to beat you to death with.

In that game, resource management largely serves the purpose of filling out the gameplay inbetween these moments of intense violence and terror, and it goes fairly deep; you even have to upkeep your shoes, less you have to run barefoot, putting you at risk of cutting yourself and bleeding out.

In TTRPGs, specifically of the DND variety, the equivalent of those intense moments happen much more frequently in most games, even ones that attempt a more gritty take. As a result, the amount of resource management thats appropriate needs to be balanced with that frequency in mind, otherwise its just tedium.

But the other issue tends to be that of bloat that drags the game out, separately from tedious elements.

Counting arrows for instance tends to be well balanced for this in say early 5E. But as you get to later levels, and enemy HP starts to baloon, counting the arrows starts to get tedious because the arrows basically stay the same and your damage, if it goes up at all on average, doesn't always keep up with the amount of damage that needs to be put out.

In DayZ, this isn't much of a problem. Some guns are super weak and basically worthless outside of your first hour or so alive, but most of them are relatively equally lethal against all targets. Player skill tends to matter more than having bigger numbers.

So back in DND land, while you can push the game to be more player skill oriented and address the issue that way, but I think you can also address it going the other way. Using the arrow example, you could set it up to where arrows as a resource have more depth. Different types, effects, and quantities that one can count on having. These arrows would be differentiated from standard ones, and counted. Whereas standard arrows, might be effectively infinite; especially in 5e where there is no real crafting for them and the game leans too heavily into the power fantasy for standard arrows to be that big of a concern.

But, if you also address those issues, and introduce gathering and crafting mechanics that don't disrupt the gameplay loop (and ideally integrate seamlessly with it), and perhaps draw down the power fantasy elements to make arrows of all kinds, including standard ones, more individually valuable as resources (rather than just flavor or a mechanical ribbon), then you could have resource management actually be fun for a player.

And of course, as others mentioned, it still does come down to preference. These ideas mainly go towards providing the better experience for the player that enjoys having resource management as part of the game; they may or may not do diddly for someone who doesn't like that kind of gameplay.

 

[Staffan]

Right, I get that, it's just, I played a few Fighters in 4e, and I don't recall ever selecting a Power for it's cool weapon type bonus, though obviously some did exist. Some of this was apparently to support the other Fighter builds, but I don't recall seeing those used as often as the vanilla version.

Me being me, I checked the 4e PHB and it seems it was primarily a thing at level 3, 13, and 23. Almost all of the PHB fighter exploits at those levels had additional secondary effects if you used the right weapon, and pretty much no exploits at other levels. I don't know if that design held in later books.