Is Resource Management “Fun?”

[Micah Sweet]

They aren't a necessary evil. Plenty of games don't use hit points at all - some of them much grittier and more "realistic" than D&D. Using hit points is a choice at this point.

So I agree with @Aldarc - this is special pleading in favor of familiarity.

As I said, I balance my desires for simulation with my player's desires to play a game they're familiar with. I don't want  more abstraction.

 

[bloodtide]

I also find that players who come from video games are more inclined to respond well to resource management.

I find the video gamers to be the other way: they hate keeping track of anything. They like video games as the game does it for them.

 

[Lanefan]

Not in my experience. The spell bloat in D&D came long after I quit that system in the early 80s.

Continual Light and Tenser's Disc are in the 1e PH, meaning they were in place before the early 80s.

I also find that players who come from video games are more inclined to respond well to resource management.

Interesting; and a bit surprising in a positive way, in that I'd expect video gamers to be accustomed to the game doing the tracking for them and thus their not being impressed with having to do said tracking themselves.

 

[Pedantic]

On the light spells and bags of holding note, those items are only significant in a context where they do solve a problem. A bag of holding is interesting if and only if its presence means something about what the party can carry now that they couldn't before. Even if it's say, an assumption of mid-high level play that PCs will no longer be tracking ammunition or worrying about hauling around rations, there's still reasons to put rations in the game to allow for that qualitative change in gameplay (and to make those items/spells/abilities appealing rewards).

Which is not to defend any particular implementation of logistics-solving items, which definitely feels pretty haphazard and scattershot over the various editions. 5e has handed out so much darkvision while still having torch/light rules, for example.

 

[Lanefan]

I do not like “free” light, food or water at the lowest levels. (I wish light was a spell and not a cantrip at least).

It's an easy fix to make...

Though come to think of it….I don’t think we track water in any way!

Which most of the time makes sense; in most situations water is commonly available somewhere nearby, and even in a dungeon or similar the occupants (unless they're all undead!) have to get water from somewhere. That said, it's surprising how many adventure writers skip this little detail and don't put a clean-water supply in the dungeon....

The only time I worry about tracking it is cases where it's not available for a length of time e.g. a desert crossing or an open-ocean ship voyage.

 

[JohnSnow]

I just want to say that I'm finding the discussion fascinating, even if it's not actually producing any resolution. It's certainly got the wheels churning in my brain about ways to make resource management a relevant part of the game, and also where and when to abstract things.

Just to comment on Hit Points, I personally find them to be a useful, if occasionally annoying, abstraction. I can certainly appreciate the attrition-based simplicity that they bring to the game, even if they have historically come with a truckload of "What exactly are hit points?" baggage.
I can also appreciate that part of what makes hit points annoying is that (in D&D at least), they are bundled up with Armor Class, which really ought to be called "Defense" given how hit points interact with it and what they represent. If they don't represent physical damage, but rather fatigue, luck, divine favor, etc., then they should recover much more quickly than "daily."

But then we need a different system for handling ACTUAL wounds, and determining if they're serious. Separately, it occurs to me that if one wanted to lower the damage resistance ramp up curve, one could potentially make the damage numbers much lower, have them need to scale much less, and the system could still work. Which makes me want to glance at both Fantasy AGE and my old Green Ronin-produced Warhammer Fantasy game, both of which I think used slightly different systems.

 

[The Shadow]

Even if it's say, an assumption of mid-high level play that PCs will no longer be tracking ammunition or worrying about hauling around rations, there's still reasons to put rations in the game to allow for that qualitative change in gameplay (and to make those items/spells/abilities appealing rewards).

I mean no offense, but my first reaction is that sounds like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop!

 

[Pedantic]

I mean no offense, but my first reaction is that sounds like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop!

I mean...that's kind of the whole appeal of level progression. Problems are hard, you grow, and the hard problems become easier or irrelevant, and previously impossible problems move down to merely hard. Resource management is actually a pretty good example of a divide there though. Resource management that becomes obviated over time is progression in kind, instead of progression in scale, which are pretty different but tend to get lumped in together.

Increasing AC, such that you can't hit a dragon at all at level 1, and can't miss a goblin at all at level 15, is a question of scale/magnitude, where you're better at something, and thus able to tackle the "hardest" version of the thing....but the task is exactly the same as it was at the lower level. You declare the same action, and use the same decision making as a result.

Having to worry about say, how many days of food you can carry, and thus, how far you can travel from your home base, vs. how far with pack animals, vs. distance is an irrelevant concept we have access to teleport, is an example of progress in kind, as the nature of the problem being solved and/or the nature of player decision making around the problem changes entirely.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

It's an easy fix to make...

Which most of the time makes sense; in most situations water is commonly available somewhere nearby, and even in a dungeon or similar the occupants (unless they're all undead!) have to get water from somewhere. That said, it's surprising how many adventure writers skip this little detail and don't put a clean-water supply in the dungeon....

The only time I worry about tracking it is cases where it's not available for a length of time e.g. a desert crossing or an open-ocean ship voyage.

You know, I thought of that after the fact. Water is acquired on the way or at the site most of the time.

 

[cbwjm]

In halfway tempted to use inventory points from fabula ultima. Still wouldn't be tracking ammo, but for things like healing pots or maybe the players need a length of rope, they can instead expend 1 or more inventory points and just have the item (no hoarding items, you spend the points and use the healing pots, for instance).

When they return to town they spend a certain amount of cash to restock on inventory points for the next quest.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Continual Light and Tenser's Disc are in the 1e PH, meaning they were in place before the early 80s.

True, but with a spell slot refresh every 24 hours, non-combat spells usually got dropped.

Interesting; and a bit surprising in a positive way, in that I'd expect video gamers to be accustomed to the game doing the tracking for them and thus their not being impressed with having to do said tracking themselves.

I game online. Automated PC sheets make inventory very easy.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I find the video gamers to be the other way: they hate keeping track of anything. They like video games as the game does it for them.

Automated PC sheets: Find them, employ them.

 

[Kaodi]

Resource management may be fine up until the point where it starts to drag the whole game down. The question should perhaps be: how much time per hour should be taken up by resource management?

 

[CleverNickName]

(shrug) It's not worth much, but my opinion? I think it's pretty fun.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Resource management may be fine up until the point where it starts to drag the whole game down. The question should perhaps be: how much time per hour should be taken up by resource management?

That's a valid assessment. I have detailed resource management in my campaign, and I would say it takes up about 10-15 minutes per four-hour session.

 

[Panzeh]

I've found that resource management beyond the obvious individualistic stuff tends to be a very binary thing- either the group has a player who has a gift for planning and can very skillfully ensure that expeditions are fully provisioned(which for the most part eliminates the stress that resource management is supposed to bring), or nobody's interested in the nitty gritty planning required to mitigate it(in which case, using it as a stress point feels arbitrary). A lot of players talk a big game about how it'll be cool to have resource management right up to the point where i ask them to plan out exactly what you're bringing on an expedition. So, I think i've come to the conclusion that it's something to be used sparingly, as a one-off part of an adventure, something very particular.

I will admit i've never made archers track their arrows, because generally that's not factored into their balance. I don't wish to punish them for using a bow instead of playing a Warlock with Eldritch Blast. At best, i consider the weight of a full quiver for a 'default' loadout and then move on from there.

 

[pemerton]

I've found that resource management beyond the obvious individualistic stuff tends to be a very binary thing- either the group has a player who has a gift for planning and can very skillfully ensure that expeditions are fully provisioned(which for the most part eliminates the stress that resource management is supposed to bring), or nobody's interested in the nitty gritty planning required to mitigate it(in which case, using it as a stress point feels arbitrary).

What RPGs do you have in mind here?

 

[Panzeh]

I've played GURPS, Traveller, and several other games of that level of detail and yeah, most people bounce off the planning aspect of resource management, especially if it's say, "outfit a ship meant to explore a sparsely-explored continent". Or even "Outfit a tramp steamer for a small crew", and often "outfit an expedition meant to go out 100 miles"

Of course, those games, much like d&d, let you either play with full resource management or handwave things.

 

[rmcoen]

Here's my take, after 42 years of playing D&D (and only slightly fewer playing computer RPGs of all types:

1. Many people have said the core thing: Logistics is only interesting when it fails.

2. Like not finding the first trap, logistics failures lead to obsessive over-planning, which can be the height of "unfun".

Currently, my solution is not unlike others I've read here: Occasionally impose #1 for story interest, and most dispense with #2.

Easy example: I was playing DDO last week, wasn't paying attention, and ran out of Thieves Tools in the middle of the adventure (they are a consumable, stacks of 50, use one per attempt). Silly me. But the rest of that adventure, I needed to figure out ways around the traps, and remember which ones were still armed (due to some clover-leaf backtracking). When I got out, I went right to a shop and bought 200 more! This became an issue later, as it used 4 of my precious FTP 40 inventory slots, which is another aspect of Resource Management.

PCs, after adventure #1, generally are never in a bind on what they can afford, only what they can carry. And usually, due to magic, don't need to worry about that after level 2 or 3. Why carry a bunch of miscellaneous tools when you can craft them out of ice, conjure them whole, or reconfigure your pet dogbot to have a lockpick tail?

One of my players offered to try using an Ammunition Die for her hand crossbows, just to see if there was some fun to be had in the occasional "oops, out of bolts!" moments that might pop up. Never happened in 6 sessions - she did resupply a couple times from fallen foes - and she doesn't bother tracking it anymore.

CRPGs use inventory space or carry weight to (try to) limit how much loot/gear you can reasonably truck back to the merchant. (or to microtransaction sell you inventory upgrades) "Yes, all 20 temple guardians had full plate armor. Yes, it's worth 1000gp a suit. But Aha! it weighs 50 pounds each...." Player: "Okay. I can carry 2, the lesser bag of holding can carry 2 more... I'll just make 5 trips. Because I can." So was it really limiting? [DDO again, can't leave the dungeon without penalty -- so I start dropping the 5pp potions so I can pick up the 50pp gems... and then start dropping the 50pp gems so I can pick up the 2000pp magic weapon.]

Is this fun? Not really. I pack an extra 100 arrows (what, 20 sp total), can we move on? We all carry 2 weeks of iron rations, and buy fresh food in towns. The DM makes a comment on day 2 or three of the journey that the fresh food is gone, and we move on. I had a torrential rainstorm (and a bad Survival check) ruin their dried supplies; the ranger hunted, the dwarf fished, a day was lost... and we moved on. It was interesting, it was handled, and then we moved on.

Darker Dungeon works on resource management because it artificially restricts your resources. You get 8 things. Torches, camping gear, healing potions, bandages... you get 8. And the dungeon will demand you use a (somewhat randomly determined) dozen or more. Whereas PCs in a game are going to each be carrying multiples of all of them... and we move on.

So after all this time, I've come down to "I work with the CRPG's restrictions", but in games I run, resources will only matter when the story - or the realistic weather, because I do that - makes it matter in a reasonable situation. Your characters (after level 1) are assumed to have reasonable supplies. the STR 8 rogue is not carrying backup grappling hooks, for example, but I'm not watching or caring about that until she loses one! (Which did happen when running into a laser-shooting golem while scouting alone...)

 

[CreamCloud0]

if 95% of the time they weren't just immediately waived away by having a component pouch or arcane focus/holy symbol would needing to aquire the right material components for spells be categorised as resource management? have any of you played a campaign like that where you actually have to first aquire the piece of cured leather for mage armour, or the lightning-struck twig to cast witch bolt?