Is Resource Management “Fun?”

[Lanefan]

Not back when I played it. with a 24 hour recenal of spell slots, you didn't see many non-combat spells.

Continual Light isn't the best example here, in that with a duration of "permanent" any character with even a shred of wisdom is going to cast a bunch of them on coins or pebbles while still in town so as to never have to bother prepping it in the field.

I can't remember the last time I saw anyone cast Tenser's Floating Disc*, probably because most of the times it would be really useful are for long-range travel e.g. hauling the dungeon's loot three days back to town, and the spell just doesn't last long enough.

* - or as we like to call it, Tenser's Herniated Disc.

 

[rmcoen]

Continual Light isn't the best example here, in that with a duration of "permanent" any character with even a shred of wisdom is going to cast a bunch of them on coins or pebbles while still in town so as to never have to bother prepping it in the field.

I can't remember the last time I saw anyone cast Tenser's Floating Disc*, probably because most of the times it would be really useful are for long-range travel e.g. hauling the dungeon's loot three days back to town, and the spell just doesn't last long enough.

* - or as we like to call it, Tenser's Herniated Disc.

We used it a few times to get awkward treasure out of the dungeon and up to our waiting wagons. Which I think was the intended purpose. (Still works, now that it is a ritual spell.) Also used it a couple times to get corpses out of places - once a party member, and once a minotaur we were sent to hunt. Use the spell because no one could carry the barbarian's corpse back up the waterfall we had climbed down to get to the dungeon!

 

[Jd Smith1]

Continual Light isn't the best example here, in that with a duration of "permanent" any character with even a shred of wisdom is going to cast a bunch of them on coins or pebbles while still in town so as to never have to bother prepping it in the field.

I can't remember the last time I saw anyone cast Tenser's Floating Disc*, probably because most of the times it would be really useful are for long-range travel e.g. hauling the dungeon's loot three days back to town, and the spell just doesn't last long enough.

* - or as we like to call it, Tenser's Herniated Disc.

Point. Although I did not allow that sort of meta-gaming back in my D&D days. To be fair, I lost interest in D&D very early on. I moved on to low-power games and stayed there.

 

[Pedantic]

Point. Although I did not allow that sort of meta-gaming back in my D&D days. To be fair, I lost interest in D&D very early on. I moved on to low-power games and stayed there.

I think it's a stretch to call those two decisions metagaming, unless you think spell durations should be randomized and/or concealed from players? If you cut off access to the PHB spell section and just gave the PC the descriptions of those two spells that they knew, it's not at all hard to make those choices without any outside information. The travel times are presumably directly determined by experience, as the players would have had to go to the dungeon from town, and descend down into the dungeon from the surface.

 

[Lanefan]

Point. Although I did not allow that sort of meta-gaming back in my D&D days. To be fair, I lost interest in D&D very early on. I moved on to low-power games and stayed there.

@Pedantic beat me to it, but I too have to ask how pre-casting Continual Light is metagaming; particularly as by the time the characters get access to the spell they've almost certainly already been through a few adventures/dungeons and would know the importance of reliable light sources.

 

[Panzeh]

Yeah, it's about as much 'metagaming' as having a player who makes a spreadsheet for every expedition from such a copper-grubbing GM to ensure that the party is taking enough provisions for a trip.

 

[MichaelSomething]

It's not about "fun", it's about setting the right vibe.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I think it's a stretch to call those two decisions metagaming, unless you think spell durations should be randomized and/or concealed from players? If you cut off access to the PHB spell section and just gave the PC the descriptions of those two spells that they knew, it's not at all hard to make those choices without any outside information. The travel times are presumably directly determined by experience, as the players would have had to go to the dungeon from town, and descend down into the dungeon from the surface.

Metagaming is not the correct term. I was thinking of munchkin.

I did/do not like the D&D endless cascade of spells, powers, and magical items, which is why I abandoned the system and never looked back.

 

[Pedantic]

Metagaming is not the correct term. I was thinking of munchkin.

I did/do not like the D&D endless cascade of spells, powers, and magical items, which is why I abandoned the system and never looked back.

I suppose that's fair from a very strict low-fantasy perspective, but it's really hard to call that a munchkin move in the context of D&D specifically. That's the most on-brand use of those spells. No one is shoving heads in bags to blind people, disking over pressure plates or anything.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Continual Light and Tenser's Floating DIsk are 1E spells in the 1978 Player's Handbook. They are 1st/2nd level. This isnt some high level munchkin nonsense. The default state is "torches no longer matter at 3rd level", and likely far before that, given that 1e adventures are dripping with items as well.

This fetishization over grubbing for coppers and counting sticks seems pretty revisionist when you actually look at the game and the published adventures.

This is a great point. I think that the focus on gear in early D&D was most prominent at lower levels. The spells and items that obviated all that were rewards for making into the middle levels. I have some thoughts on this.

First, I think that the trivialization of those kind of basic concerns was a bit counterproductive over time. Sure, the first time you get a bag of holding or similar items/spells, it feels rewarding. You feel like you’ve progressed beyond the point where you need to be counting rations and bringing porters or a horse and cart to transport all your loot. But when that game wraps up and you begin a new one, you’re back to the tedium. And it only serves to point out how tedious it is.

Second, rewards for leveling up were less frequent in earlier editions of D&D. That’s why such a significant portion of rewards was through magic items. These days, just about every character gets at least one nee feature at every level. The characters are more capable without relying on magic items. They’re still present, of course, but don’t seem as necessary as they did in AD&D. By comparison, not having to track torches seems like a pittance compared to Action Surge and stuff like that.

I’d like to see them rethink inventory related rules in 6E. I think it can be a compelling part of the game, but I think that it really depends on what kind of scenarios the characters will be in, and what kind of rules are used to work with such scenarios.

But as it os right now in 5e, it doesn’t seem a very engaging part of the game.

 

[Lanefan]

This is a great point. I think that the focus on gear in early D&D was most prominent at lower levels. The spells and items that obviated all that were rewards for making into the middle levels. I have some thoughts on this.

First, I think that the trivialization of those kind of basic concerns was a bit counterproductive over time. Sure, the first time you get a bag of holding or similar items/spells, it feels rewarding. You feel like you’ve progressed beyond the point where you need to be counting rations and bringing porters or a horse and cart to transport all your loot. But when that game wraps up and you begin a new one, you’re back to the tedium. And it only serves to point out how tedious it is.

For us it's often a pleasant change. Usually, if we go back to a very low level game it means we're coming off a long-term (as in, many years) mid-high level one, and the return to tracking the basics is almost a breath of fresh air.

 

[Aldarc]

For us it's often a pleasant change. Usually, if we go back to a very low level game it means we're coming off a long-term (as in, many years) mid-high level one, and the return to tracking the basics is almost a breath of fresh air.

Would you prefer to track the basics for a longer period of time? Or is there are point in the game where tracking the basics also becomes tedious and you hope to acquire work-arounds to the resource management mini-game?

 

[Panzeh]

I don't really know if there's a particularly engaging version of 'gotcha, you forgot to say you were going to the shop to buy some mundane things that two levels from now will be a trivial expense for you'

 

[GungHo]

Depends on the resource and context. Unless I intend to emphasize survivalism, crafting, or "a person out of time" scenario, I am not counting your bullets, arrows, spell components (unless the spell component is intended as a clear balancing measure for the spell) or things which I collectively call "rope, soap, and dope". I don't have time for that. I also don't have time for the archer or spellcaster whining that they can't do what they are supposed to do but the melee guys are okay because "swords don't run out" (nor do I have the inclination to track something like the sword getting busted because they finally greased their 100th monster). Unless, that's the point of the scenario. But, I don't do a lot of those scenarios or I do it sparingly within another scenario because I personally don't like that and if I wanted to do accounting, I can go to the office. That being said, I'm not giving you free hp, forgetting that you cast that spell, or pretending that new sword you bought was free.

However, ultimately, hitpoints, spells, potions, equipment, money, etc. are a resource, and you manage it. D&D has always been a resource management game, and many other games follow suit, even if they just call the resources different things. It's really about how micro you want to go. I can see why other people might enjoy going micro enough that it's like running a stockroom at Home Depot. I would say to those folks that automation is your friend.

 

[Celebrim]

I can't remember the last time I saw anyone cast Tenser's Floating Disc*, probably because most of the times it would be really useful are for long-range travel e.g. hauling the dungeon's loot three days back to town, and the spell just doesn't last long enough.

It's not for hauling the loot back to town. It's for hauling the loot back to the mules.

 

[Celebrim]

It might be interesting if there was just one player, but with a party, it'd be pulling teeth, like having the fighter have to roleplay out the care for their weapons and armor.

This. The number of players at the table determines the game you are playing. The more players you have at the table the more the focus of the game has to be on what everyone is doing together. The fewer players you have, the more you can focus on what that player character is doing and feeling at any given moment. So many games are written where the basically are only playable by one or maybe two players with a single GM because the sort of gameplay they want and the pacing it implies, implies continual spotlight on a player.

This is actually the real determining factor in what a game is about. You can have six or eight players and put spotlight on the actions of an individual player, but what that player is then doing better be really entertaining to watch.

 

[Celebrim]

The better game systems don't use hit points....

I'm increasingly of the opposite opinion.

 

[James Gasik]

It's not for hauling the loot back to town. It's for hauling the loot back to the mules.

You had mules? We always came back to find ours had been devoured by monsters.

Yes, the hirelings we left to watch them as well.

 

[Lanefan]

Would you prefer to track the basics for a longer period of time? Or is there are point in the game where tracking the basics also becomes tedious and you hope to acquire work-arounds to the resource management mini-game?

Neither, kind of.

There's a point in the game where tracking the basics* becomes less necessary - where magic can largely replace the need to track e.g. light, water, and food - and very conveniently that point happens around the same time the players are (mostly) asked to do more tracking in other areas: spells, magic items (e.g. charges used), character finances, ability usage, and so on.

In the end they're tracking different resources as the characters go up in level, rather than not tracking anything.

* - except ammunition, tracking that is always necessary.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't really know if there's a particularly engaging version of 'gotcha, you forgot to say you were going to the shop to buy some mundane things that two levels from now will be a trivial expense for you'

I can't count the number of times a player, in-character, has bemoaned the fact they forgot to get something trivial while in town - something that would right now come in real handy if they had one. Commonly forgotten things IME are mirrors (for looking around corners, signalling outdoors, reflecting gazes, etc.), sacks or body bags, iron spikes, and drinking cups.

And yes, that's realistic. People forget things.