D&D 5E (2014) Is stoneskin underpowered?
- Thread starter Uller
- Start date
CapnZapp
Legend
Yes, but this happens so rarely few casters will bother preparing/memorizing the spell in the first place.
It's not that you can use a spell for cherry-picked encounters - it needs to have *some* general utility.
In this case there are plenty of spells that take care of a lone Dino, that also work in other cases, or are lower level and therefore less expensive.
At least with my redesign this latter reason not to use Stoneskin goes away.
Immoralkickass
Adventurer
Its definitely very underpowered. I feel that a spell with 1 hr duration should not require concentration, especially one with an effect as weak as this. Casting Stoneskin means you can forget about casting any other spell that also requires concentration, lest you dont mind it ending early. Obviously you would pre-cast this spell if you foresee a bunch of tough fights ahead, but if in the first fight your best option is to Banish a very dangerous baddie, its a wasted 4th level slot there.
Casting it on yourself is weird, because you should be trying to avoid taking damage, and when you do, you might drop concentration, and the chances are not in your favour. I mean come on, by the time you get this spell, every monster and their mother have multi-attack. Casting on others is meh, when other buffs like Haste or Freedom of Movement is better. And speaking of Freedom of Movement, that's how a level 4 single target buff should be. Nobody said it was overpowered just because it didn't require concentration.
Its just an un-fun spell no matter how you look at it. Defensive spells are already less fun than offensive spells in general, but they somehow have to make this one really annoying to use by adding concentration and component cost.
Casting it on yourself is weird, because you should be trying to avoid taking damage, and when you do, you might drop concentration, and the chances are not in your favour. I mean come on, by the time you get this spell, every monster and their mother have multi-attack. Casting on others is meh, when other buffs like Haste or Freedom of Movement is better. And speaking of Freedom of Movement, that's how a level 4 single target buff should be. Nobody said it was overpowered just because it didn't require concentration.
Its just an un-fun spell no matter how you look at it. Defensive spells are already less fun than offensive spells in general, but they somehow have to make this one really annoying to use by adding concentration and component cost.
CapnZapp
Legend
It's clearly designed by someone else than the Barbarian designer.
Pro tip: Getting damage reduction is not the all-powerful OMGWTFBBG broken-ass ability the Stoneskin designer clearly believed. Especially when limited to non-magical attacks. Just ask your colleague, the Barbarian designer.
Pro tip: Getting damage reduction is not the all-powerful OMGWTFBBG broken-ass ability the Stoneskin designer clearly believed. Especially when limited to non-magical attacks. Just ask your colleague, the Barbarian designer.
I've always been tempted to remove the "non-magical" verbiage from the spell. This brings it more in line with what Blade Ward does, and you should start encountering more creatures with attacks that count as magical when the spell comes online (maybe before), though they may not make up a huge percentage of foes. This makes the spell a little bit more universally applicable, though does make it more powerful when used against the PCs. Those plus x weapons are still adding about .5 - 1.5 damage though, so it isn't a total wash.
MostlyHarmless42
Adventurer
My biggest issue with stoneskin isn't the spell itself. As a player using it, it has its uses. What frustrates me about stoneskin is the concentration aspect, specifically enemy caster npcs (i.e. archmages, archdruids, etc). Their challenge rating and effective health is designed around keeping up stoneskin, yet many of their actual spells in the typical stat lock are also concentration spells. Basically their challenge rating is based on numbers that aren't there. If it wasn't a concentration spell these npcs would be more in line.
I've a similar frustration with how dispell magic works in function, namely that it removes EVERY spell on a target equal to your dice roll or lower. I have regularly had level 7 or 8 caster PCs solo archmages (a cr 12 and "lorewise" 18th level casters) creatures because of this. One (or two if they counterspell the archmages counterspell) 3rd level spell slot and a luck dice roll shouldn't negate 9th level (time stop), 8th (mind blank) slots AND at least 2 two 3 other slots of 6th level or lower ALL AT ONCE. It completely trivializes those encounters.
I've a similar frustration with how dispell magic works in function, namely that it removes EVERY spell on a target equal to your dice roll or lower. I have regularly had level 7 or 8 caster PCs solo archmages (a cr 12 and "lorewise" 18th level casters) creatures because of this. One (or two if they counterspell the archmages counterspell) 3rd level spell slot and a luck dice roll shouldn't negate 9th level (time stop), 8th (mind blank) slots AND at least 2 two 3 other slots of 6th level or lower ALL AT ONCE. It completely trivializes those encounters.
MostlyHarmless42
Adventurer
You dont. You cast dispell the turn after the mage time stops and puts up all his buffs, thus wasting his only 9th level spell, his action, and any spell slots he's also used on himself for buffs (including the aforementioned crappy stone skin, which will likely have fallen off anyway because, again, it requires concentration).
In previous editions this was less an issue due to time stop allowing offensive setups. Now I cant even so much as summon a pit or cloudkill to harm the players when time resumes, doing so ends the spell early. Time stop is now strictly speaking an "oh crap I've been ambushed, time to put up my buffs or run away" spell (the latter of which I dont see an archmage doing on the literal first turn of a fight against what should be *much* weaker casters and their lackies).
Given the rules of the 5e world, fleeing is exactly what any archmage should do when facing multiple foes - regardless of personal power, the greater action counts usually win. OTOH, I could make quite a few of my NPCs smart enough to escape, but my players find that really unsatisfactory. I still give them full XP for encounters but they feel cheated when an enemy escapes so I reserve that for special occasions.
To avoid being entirely off topic - the two flavors of Stoneskin that CapnZapp proposed looks like a good change. This has always struck me as one of the most worthless spells in the PHB.
CapnZapp
Legend
Yes an Archmage (the NPC stat block) is dead within three rounds even against single-digit level heroes.
He should definitely run away to recruit a few meat shields.
The way 5th edition works is that the encounter becomes MUCH more dangerous with one or two such bodyguards, even if they are run of the mill.
If you add enough meatshields that the party can't focus their attacks on the Archmage during the first round or two, the encounter becomes even more difficult, quickly reaching TPK levels of deadliness (for our level 9 party)
This is all due to action economy.
Enemy casters rarely survive even two rounds against a party's focus fire, even if theoretically much higher CR.
But if they DO survive for those two rounds unmolested that changes everything in terms of encounter difficulty.
He should definitely run away to recruit a few meat shields.
The way 5th edition works is that the encounter becomes MUCH more dangerous with one or two such bodyguards, even if they are run of the mill.
If you add enough meatshields that the party can't focus their attacks on the Archmage during the first round or two, the encounter becomes even more difficult, quickly reaching TPK levels of deadliness (for our level 9 party)
This is all due to action economy.
Enemy casters rarely survive even two rounds against a party's focus fire, even if theoretically much higher CR.
But if they DO survive for those two rounds unmolested that changes everything in terms of encounter difficulty.
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