Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

[frankthedm]

I don't understand the confusion, text is more important then charts. If you want a more accurate answer look in the FAQ. A sunder is an attack just like trip and disarm. How else do dragons win

Combat Expertice, improved trip, then improved disarm. Then fly away top speed with new addition to the hoard!

 

[Kieperr]

Sunder, Grapple, Trip, and Disarm are all melee attacks.

From the PHB:
Disarm: As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent.

Grapple: Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll.

Sunder: You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Trip: You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

Of all four only Sunder is listed under Standard Action on the Actions in Combat table. The other three are listed under Action Type Varies and have the footnote that allows them to be used multiple times. Only Grapple states that you can make multiple attempts to start a grapple if you have multiple attacks. There is nothing in any of the descriptions that define whether or not these special attacks are standard actions. That is what the table does. There is no discrepancy between the table and the descriptions of these special attacks. They all require a melee attack but that does not mean that they can all be attempted multiple times per round. Sunder is defined as a standard action and as such cannot be attempted more than once per round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

They all require a melee attack but that does not mean that they can all be attempted multiple times per round.

For Disarm and Trip (as well as Grapple), though, footnote 7 does specifically allow for 'one or more times' on a Full Attack action... so as someone noted, Grapple's indication that one can attempt to start a grapple multiple times is redundant information (though still accurate).

-Hyp.

 

[Kieperr]

For Disarm and Trip (as well as Grapple), though, footnote 7 does specifically allow for 'one or more times' on a Full Attack action...

Have it covered, second sentence of the paragraph.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Have it covered, second sentence of the paragraph.

So you do

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Sunder, Grapple, Trip, and Disarm are all melee attacks.

From the PHB:
Disarm: As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent.

Grapple: Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll.

Sunder: You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Trip: You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

Of all four only Sunder is listed under Standard Action on the Actions in Combat table. The other three are listed under Action Type Varies and have the footnote that allows them to be used multiple times. Only Grapple states that you can make multiple attempts to start a grapple if you have multiple attacks. There is nothing in any of the descriptions that define whether or not these special attacks are standard actions. That is what the table does. There is no discrepancy between the table and the descriptions of these special attacks. They all require a melee attack but that does not mean that they can all be attempted multiple times per round. Sunder is defined as a standard action and as such cannot be attempted more than once per round.

You forgot a couple more

Bull rush: You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below.)

Overrun: You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move.

Aid Another: If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action.

These are all under the same section as Sunder, Disarm, Grapple and Trip. Yet they cleary say they take a Standard action to perform.

CMIIAR, but a melee attack can be taken in many different situations. As a Standard action, as a Full round action, as part of a Charge, as part of an Attack of Opportunity (not an action) just to name a few. Melee attacks are not limited to Standard Actions only. However... if you take a Standard Action, you ARE limited to making 1 melee attack.

So, according to the text (not the table), the actions (Trip, Sunder, Disarm, etc.) listed as melee attack should be able to be taken anytime you make a melee attack. According to their text description they aren't limited other than to the amount of times a melee attack would apply. For Bull rush, overrun and aid another, you have to specifically take a Standard Action to use them. Which in turn has to be a melee attack. Which in turn is limited to once per round.

Now the tables are there not to correct or clarify what the text says, but to make a nice and neat one-stop section where you can go to look up some rules. They are there so you don't have to thumb through the entire combat section looking to see if Disarm provokes an AoO or if Charge is a full-round or standard action. The table is all of a sudden adding a limitation to Sunder, which is that it takes a Standard Action to perform, which means only once per round. If you look at the text alone, you would never know this. This limitation (and confusion) is created due to the table. Which very well may be what the intent is (or not). The problem is, some people here are arguing that they mean the same thing. I don't see it.

This also has the added side effect that you can't Charge and Sunder someone's shield/weapon using the attack from Charge. Just something to note.

As far as the footnote... Obviouly IF the table is wrong, the footnote is wrong.

 

[Infiniti2000]

CMIIAR, but a ...

Huh? Please save me the trip to Google on this one ...

Now the tables are there not to correct or clarify what the text says, but to make a nice and neat one-stop section where you can go to look up some rules.

I know you did not just say that.

To make sure I understand you correctly, I will exaggerate your point to almost strawman-like levels. Are you suggesting that we can remove all tables from the books because they are not there to correct or clarify, and just exist for convenience? If not all tables, please explain why this one table deserves to be deleted as, essentially, superfluous.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Huh? Please save me the trip to Google on this one ...
I know you did not just say that.

To make sure I understand you correctly, I will exaggerate your point to almost strawman-like levels. Are you suggesting that we can remove all tables from the books because they are not there to correct or clarify, and just exist for convenience? If not all tables, please explain why this one table deserves to be deleted as, essentially, superfluous.

Well, first off... It was a typo, should have been CMIIAW (Correct Me If I Am Wrong) but I spelt it RONG. Heh...

Secondly, no, I did not say that. I typed it. Well, technically I may have said it in my head. Anyway, I never said we should delete all tables. I said they are there so we don't have to waste time looking at the text when we need to find a quick rule. The problem is, when the table is wrong or makes up it's own rules, we have a discrepancy. Again, this may NOT be the problem. The problem may very well be with the text not containing the words "Standard Action" like they do with Aid Another, Bull Rush and Overrun. And if there is a discrepancy, we are supposed to take the text over the table anyway.

Care to maybe quote some of the other things I mentioned in my post and tell me why you may disagree (or agree) with the logic?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The problem is, when the table is wrong or makes up it's own rules, we have a discrepancy.

The text for a gnome hooked hammer says "The hammer’s blunt head is a bludgeoning weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage (crit x3). Its hook is a piercing weapon that deals 1d4 points of damage (crit x4)."

The table says Dmg (S) 1d6/1d4; Dmg (M) 1d8/1d6.

Is the table making up its own rules when it says that the medium hooked hammer deals 1d8/1d6? This information is not contained in the text for the weapon, and in fact contradicts what is stated...

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Anyway, I never said we should delete all tables. I said they are there so we don't have to waste time looking at the text when we need to find a quick rule.

In some cases, the table is there as the sole source of rules. Look at the "examples" for Listen DCs, spells known per day, etc. It's pure speculation whether any one table can just be thrown out or not. And, let me point out that I think that's what you're stating, that this table we're discussing, can just be thrown out.

Unless you have rock solid proof that we can, then we cannot. Thus, any statements even alluding to the idea that the table is entirely convenience and can be ignored are wrong. So, we can't ignore it and unless it conflicts with text we have to assume the table is entirely correct.

Care to maybe quote some of the other things I mentioned in my post and tell me why you may disagree (or agree) with the logic?

Sure. You said this: "So, according to the text (not the table), the actions (Trip, Sunder, Disarm, etc.) listed as melee attack should be able to be taken anytime you make a melee attack." Actually, it's according to the table, not the text, where this very important correlation is made. The text doesn't make this correlation and the wording of "melee attack" is extremely ambiguous otherwise. A melee attack a clearly defined standard action. It's also a clearly defined portion of a full round action, etc. Which is it? The only way to know is the table.