Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

[Infiniti2000]

Er, yeah. Isn't that what I said?

Not written, you said it with your mind. Apparently, Deset Gled doesn't have telepathy like the rest of us.

 

[Felix]

I'm in the "Multiple Iterative Sunders" camps, and that there is disagreement between the text and the table.

"You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."

Assume: +6 BAB

When I attack iteratively, I can make a melee attack as normal. I then have another melee attack at +1. I use that melee attack to sunder. Because the description allows me to use "a melee attack", I use my melee attack which comes at a +1.

Now, I understand the opposing argument, I just think that this both works according to RAW, and works as to how easy I think it should be to sunder weapons and shields.

 

[Goldmoon]

I'm in the "Multiple Iterative Sunders" camps, and that there is disagreement between the text and the table.

"You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."

Assume: +6 BAB

When I attack iteratively, I can make a melee attack as normal. I then have another melee attack at +1. I use that melee attack to sunder. Because the description allows me to use "a melee attack", I use my melee attack which comes at a +1.

Now, I understand the opposing argument, I just think that this both works according to RAW, and works as to how easy I think it should be to sunder weapons and shields.

Sunder is an attack, its just an attack against a weapon or shield. If I can attack you 3 times in a round then I can attack your shield 3 times in a round instead. The downside is that you are damaging me the whole time while I am not damaging you.

 

[Deset Gled]

Now, I understand the opposing argument, I just think that this both works according to RAW, and works as to how easy I think it should be to sunder weapons and shields.

I read this to actually be an arguement for the fact that Sunder is a standard action. If you believe that both oppinions are reasonable interpretations of the text, then it follows that you should believe that sunder cannot be used in place of a normal attack.

If you believe that Sunder is interchangeable with normal attacks, you have to assume that the table (RAW) is wrong. OTOH, if you believe that Sunder can be used only as a standard action, then both the table and text are correct. Since you have admitted that both readings are logical, it can only follow that the reading that assumes the rules are correct is right. If you want to assume that the RAW are incorrect, you could just as easily assume that the term "melee attack" in the Sunder description is the error.

Its probably worth noting (before a debate about it starts) that this arguement only works from a RAW standpoint. If you are trying to argue intent, you're in a complete different ballgame.

 

[Felix]

I re-read the Combat chapter of the PHB and have altered my opinion (or should I say, my method of argument) as to what the proper RAW action is for a Sunder. This descrepency does not show in the SRD; it is much clearer in the PHB.

On page 139 the PHB defines "Melee Attack" as an attack, and thus as a standard action. From this point, references to "Melee Attack" should be understood as "Standard Action".

From here it can be clearly read that the table and the text are in harmony.

However:

Sunder, Grapple, Disarm, Trip, and Throw Splash Weapon all use the term "a melee attack" (or "ranged touch attack in the splash weapon's case").

Only Grapple strictly states, "If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses)."

This reading would mean that Sunders, Trips, Splash Weapons, and Disarms are always and everywhere standard actions.

Unless:

Under "Multiple Attacks" on page 140 within the Standard Action section it says, "must use the full attack action ... in order to get more than one attack". This phrase allows that some actions that are usually Standard Actions may be used repeatedly with a Full Attack action. Specifically, mutlitple attacks, presumably including "melee attacks".

Under the Full Attack section it says, "If you get more than one attack per round because ... (list of possible reasons) ..., you must use a full attack action to get your additional attacks."

So the Full Attack action explicitly allows multiple melee attacks, though melee attacks are listed as Standard Actions. It would be a reasonable ruling that because Sunder (and similarly Disarm, Trip, Grapple and Throw Splash Weapon) uses a melee attack, and multiple melee attacks are allowed under the umbrella of the Full Attack, that Sunder maybe used multiple times in a round, and this is actually represented on the table: it is represented by Full Attack.

This would also mean that the description of Grapple being allowed multiple times in a round is redundant.

This reading allows:

• iterative attacks to be used as Sunders, Trips, Disarms, and Splash Weapons.

• the table and the text to be in harmony.

• my preference for characters sundering several times in a round

The alternative to this is to restrict all uses of Sunders, Trips, Disarms, and lobbings of Splash Weapons to Standard actions.

And I think both of those could be argued as RAW. At this point, personal prefence opens the door and makes a choice.

 

[Infiniti2000]

This descrepency does not show in the SRD; it is much clearer in the PHB....

Your analysis is flawed because you do not include a discussion on the all important Footnote, given only for disarm, grapple, and trip (not sunder).

These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

 

[Deset Gled]

It would be a reasonable ruling that because Sunder (and similarly Disarm, Trip, Grapple and Throw Splash Weapon) uses a melee attack, and multiple melee attacks are allowed under the umbrella of the Full Attack, that Sunder maybe used multiple times in a round, and this is actually represented on the table: it is represented by Full Attack.

This is not a reasonable ruling. This is actually the heart of the entire debate. Just because something uses a melee attack does not mean it can always be used in place of one. A similar (previously mentioned) example is Manyshot, which uses the ranged attack action, but cannot be used in place of a ranged attack.

Also, by an extreme extrapolation of this ruling, you could actually get infinite attacks in a round. Since a Full Attack uses a melee attack, you could substitute a Full Attack for a melee attack as part of another Full Attack. Rinse and repeat until all creature within reach are dead.

 

[Felix]

A similar (previously mentioned) example is Manyshot

MANYSHOT
Benefit: As a standard action...

Sunder
You can use a melee attack...

The comparison is fallacious. Manyshot explicitly requires a Standard Action. Sunder does not. You cannot use a Standard Action as part of a Full Attack; you may use multiple attack actions as part of a Full Attack. This is what Sunder uses, and what iterative attacks are.

Yes, Sunder is a standard action. So is a melee attack. You do not argue that you always require a Standard action to use a melee attack; Full Attack and the Multiple Attacks entry specifically allows them. So, if you need a melee attack to use Sunder, and Full Attacks allow you to use your multiple melee attacks, then Full Attacking allows you to Sunder multiple times.

Since a Full Attack uses a melee attack

This is not an extension of my argument. A Full Attack does not use a melee attack. It is an action that allows multiple attack actions by virtue of BAB, TWF, special abilities, maigc, double weapons, et cetera.

In order for what you suggest to work, you would have to use a Full Attack as a Melee Attack Action, then use that Full Attack to attack and then as a Melee attack action make a Full Attack. You do not use a melee attack to make a Full Attack.

Similarly, a Sunder uses a melee attack. Multiple melee attacks via whatever means are provided by a Full Attack. One of those available melee attacks can be used to Sunder, of which all you need is a melee attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Under "Multiple Attacks" on page 140 within the Standard Action section it says, "must use the full attack action ... in order to get more than one attack". This phrase allows that some actions that are usually Standard Actions may be used repeatedly with a Full Attack action. Specifically, mutlitple attacks, presumably including "melee attacks".

Now check which actions footnote 7 applies to on Table 8-2.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, Sunder is a standard action. So is a melee attack. You do not argue that you always require a Standard action to use a melee attack; Full Attack and the Multiple Attacks entry specifically allows them. So, if you need a melee attack to use Sunder, and Full Attacks allow you to use your multiple melee attacks, then Full Attacking allows you to Sunder multiple times.

I would say, rather, that there are several actions that allow you to use a melee attack.

Attack (standard), Charge (full round), and AoO (not an action) all allow you to use a single melee attack.

Sunder (standard) allows you to use a single melee attack (with restrictions on type of weapon and target).

Full Attack (full round) allows you to use one or more melee attacks.

On account of footnote 7, when taking the Attack, Full Attack, or Charge actions, or an AoO, a Disarm, Grapple, or Trip may be used in place of a melee attack granted by the action.

The melee attack is not the action; the action is what allows you to use the melee attack.

A Full Attack does not use a melee attack. It is an action that allows multiple attack actions by virtue of BAB, TWF, special abilities, maigc, double weapons, et cetera.

The Full Attack action allows multiple attacks. It doesn't allow multiple Attack actions; the Attack action is a standard action that allows a single attack. There is a difference between multiple attacks as part of a full round action, and multiple standard actions as part of a full round action.

-Hyp.