Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

[PallidPatience]

Thank you for pointing out my mistake, Infiniti. I did, in fact, mean to say that I'd allow them to substitute for any melee attack.

 

[GorTeX]

Been following this thread for a while now. The camp that says that sunder can not be subtitued for a melee attack are completely ignoring everything WOTC has said on the subject and are trying (weakly, IMO) to assert that the text and the table do not conflict.

check out this, in rules of the game discussion:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a

Also, in the FAQ, it is either explicitely said that sunder can be subtitued for a melee attack or heavily implies it.. see the FAQ entries on Pg. 11(monk Q.), 22 (VoP Q), 39 & 42 (AoO Q's), 46 (specifically about sunder), 64 (monsters using natural attacks to sunder)

then there is the text in the Errata for the PHB (And I think others) that specifically stats that where text and table conflict, always go with the text. It doesn't say that all tables should be ignored, but where there is a discrepency between the two, go with the Text.

IMO, they (WOTC) have been very consistant in their rulings about this particular issue...Sunder, like trip, grapple and disarm, can be subtitued for a melee attack.

now lets go discuss something of real importance, like whether a medium creature with a reach weapon (not a spiked chain) can attack an adjacent large (or larger) creature...and if so, does the large creature provide cover to itself...

 

[ValhallaGH]

now lets go discuss something of real importance, like whether a medium creature with a reach weapon (not a spiked chain) can attack and adjacent large (or larger) creature...and if so, does the large creature provide cover to itself...

Yes, he can. Yes, it does; however, striking the cover still strikes the creature (since it is the cover), thereby negating the benefits of cover thereby rendering that line of discussion completely moot.

 

[Paraxis]

It is kind of redundant to keep trying to figure out what the rules meant to say. The FAQ answers the question it is an official source, if you want to discuse house rules of sunder then that is for another section.

The RAW by WoTC is sunder is a attack just like disarm,trip, and grapple. Trying to argue about what this says vs that and chart vs text is pointless the FAQ is there to clear things like this up and it does so.

I think it is personaly very reasonable to HOUSE rule that sunder is a standard action not an attack, I honestly have played d20 since the day it hit the shelves well almost the next day after I read the rules, and have only had maybe three sunder attempts in all those years happen at the table.

 

[Hypersmurf]

then there is the text in the Errata for the PHB (And I think others) that specifically stats that where text and table conflict, always go with the text. It doesn't say that all tables should be ignored, but where there is a discrepency between the two, go with the Text.

Then a gnome hooked hammer should deal 1d6/1d4 regardless of size?

The text makes a flat declaration that that is the damage a gnome hooked hammer deals. It's the table that indicates this is the damage for the small version, and that other sizes may vary; a conflict between text and table, no?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would like to point out that it DOES say under Sunder that "you may use a melee attack", and not "you may use an attack action", which is the Standard Action version of a melee attack.

You're not using the Attack action to gain the melee attack you use to attack the weapon or shield. You're using the Sunder action to gain the melee attack you use to attack the weapon or shield.

If it said "You can use the Attack action with a slashing or bludgeoning melee weapon to strike an opponent's weapon or shield", you would be able to combine it with Spring Attack or Combat Expertise. It doesn't; the attack is derived not from the Attack action, but from the Sunder action.

The text under the description of the Sunder action is completely irrelevant unless you are taking the Sunder action. If you are not taking the Sunder action, the text "You can use a melee attack to damage an opponent's weapon or shield" does not apply to you. If you're taking the Attack action, the Full Attack action, the Charge action, or an AoO, you have a melee attack... but since you're not taking the Sunder action, the text does not apply to you, and you cannot use that melee attack to damage an opponent's weapon or shield.

If you could replace any melee attack with the Sunder action, it would be type 'Varies' and carry footnote 7, just like every other action that can replace any melee attack.

It does not; it is a standard action, per Table 8-2. When you take that standard action, the text applies, allowing you to use a melee attack to damage an opponent's weapon or shield. Not to use an Attack action to do the same thing.

-Hyp.

 

[werk]

Then a gnome hooked hammer should deal 1d6/1d4 regardless of size?

The text makes a flat declaration that that is the damage a gnome hooked hammer deals. It's the table that indicates this is the damage for the small version, and that other sizes may vary; a conflict between text and table, no?

-Hyp.

I think it stands to reason that a Gnome Hooked Hammer is only available in gnome size.

[really wants to post the pic of Peter (dad) wearing Stewie's (baby) onesie from Family Guy]

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think it stands to reason that a Gnome Hooked Hammer is only available in gnome size.

So the damage for the Medium version that appears on the table is... in error?

-Hyp.

 

[Felix]

Send a couple of EEE's against the PC's and I'm sure that scribble will be summarily ripped out of the book.

And taped back in after they fight a hydra or two and can't cut off but one head a round.

And what is "EEE" if I might ask?

 

[Infiniti2000]

And what is "EEE" if I might ask?

Elder Earth Elemental.