Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee
attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but
the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder
a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a
melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack?

Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special
standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive
text for the Manyshot feat says).
If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks
from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once,
or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking
and sundering.
Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8-2: Actions
in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because
unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of
opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder
feat).
You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or
attack of opportunity).

Wow! I just realized why so many people hate the FAQ!

I actually never really noticed the footnote and had been under the impression it was an attack action. Now that I see this, it actually seems sort of balanced with disarm. Before (in my mind), the only real reason to choose disarm over sunder was if the weapon was adamantine or because it would screw the party out of loot. If you have IS and fail, no consequences. If you have the feats for trip or disarm and fail, the enemy gets to do it to you!

And a question for those who think it should be an attack action: If I have a fighter with Whirlwind who is surrounded by eight enemies, can he make a sunder attempt on each one at highest attack bonus? And if your logic leads you to yes, how do you sleep at night?

 

[Vorput]

And a question for those who think it should be an attack action: If I have a fighter with Whirlwind who is surrounded by eight enemies, can he make a sunder attempt on each one at highest attack bonus? And if your logic leads you to yes, how do you sleep at night?

Hehe... if he broke em all- that'd be the coolest thing to see. hands down. ever.

Vorp

 

[Paraxis]

And a question for those who think it should be an attack action: If I have a fighter with Whirlwind who is surrounded by eight enemies, can he make a sunder attempt on each one at highest attack bonus? And if your logic leads you to yes, how do you sleep at night?

I would allow this in a heartbeat, this is what the game is all about high cinema action. If a wizard could fireball all those guys or worse I don't see a problem.

Hehe... if he broke em all- that'd be the coolest thing to see. hands down. ever.

And this is exactly why I would allow it, because it would be the coolest thing ever, and would not lose any sleep over it at all.

 

[Legildur]

So the damage for the Medium version that appears on the table is... in error?

Okay, I vote this as my favourite post of the whole thread.

And Hypersmurf's earlier post outlining the interaction and application of the Sunder text, to me at least, really spells it out quite clearly how not only is the table and text NOT in any conflict or contradiction, but why Sunder can only be a Standard Action.

And to quote GorTex, I think it is a 'weak' argument that Sunder may substitute for any melee attack.

If people want to House Rule that Sunder can be used multiple times per round, then I can understand why you may choose to do so, but the RAW is pretty clear that it is a Standard Action. And no, the FAQ is not RAW and not even reliable.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If people want to House Rule that Sunder can be used multiple times per round, then I can understand why you may choose to do so...

The FAQ answers the question it is an official source, if you want to discuse house rules of sunder then that is for another section.

Remember, gentlemen, the sticky thread at the top of the forum notes:
"So, please do not tell other posters to go and post in the House Rules forum."

The statement "Anyone who disagrees with me is making a house rule" is one that we've asked people to avoid in here. Play nice

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Legildur]

Remember, gentlemen, the sticky thread at the top of the forum notes:
"So, please do not tell other posters to go and post in the House Rules forum."(Moderator)

Whoops!

My apologies to any posters and readers of this thread. I forgot that rule in the sticky (yes I had read it when it was first posted, so no excuses on my part). Won't happen again. Simply an opinion that could have been better expressed.

<resumes munching popcorn>

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I would allow this in a heartbeat, this is what the game is all about high cinema action. If a wizard could fireball all those guys or worse I don't see a problem.



And this is exactly why I would allow it, because it would be the coolest thing ever, and would not lose any sleep over it at all.

My problem is that health is a lot less "costly" to lose. (As long as you don't die...) Getting eight magic weapons broken in 6 seconds costs a lot to replace. (Guess it'd work very well for a 3.0 Forsaker...) And in that scenario, I was really thinking it'd be 8 PCs and one BBEG, as a lot of the groups I'm in, the PCs all gang on one guy at a time if possible. Punishing with a whirlwind attack is funny. Costing them hundreds of thousands of their hard-earned cash seems a little too punative to me.

 

[Felix]

And in that scenario, I was really thinking it'd be 8 PCs and one BBEG

That's why you don't gang up on a Blackguard.

Yeah, I'd allow the Sundering whirlwind of costly-destroying power. But: one good way to keep Sunder from ruining PCs lives is to not use it at all until the PCs do. So as soon as they start benefiting from it, so can the NPCs. Graduated warfare, I suppose.

 

[Infiniti2000]

But: one good way to keep Sunder from ruining PCs lives is to not use it at all until the PCs do. So as soon as they start benefiting from it, so can the NPCs. Graduated warfare, I suppose.

But, doesn't that imply that there's a problem with Sunder? If there's no problem, then not only is the Whirlwind abuse allowable, but the DM should use it. An adamantine spiked chain improved sunder whirldwind . . . Ugh!

 

[Goldmoon]

But, doesn't that imply that there's a problem with Sunder? If there's no problem, then not only is the Whirlwind abuse allowable, but the DM should use it. An adamantine spiked chain improved sunder whirldwind . . . Ugh!

Thats just evil.......