Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

[Felix]

But, doesn't that imply that there's a problem with Sunder?

I would avoid my NPCs using Sunder because the players dig having really cool equipment, and I don't want to use that tactic against them. Unless they use it themselves. It's not a problem with the mechanics of Sunder (which I think work just fine) but rather a problem of game enjoyment.

It's the same reason PCs run up against progressively harder lieutenants of the BBEG, even though sometimes they are run into things over their heads: it challenges them but gives them the potential to emerge victorious. Sure it chucks total verisimilitude out the window, but how fun would it be for the BBEG, whose network has been hassled for the past year by these pesky 10th level characters to send his 8th level Assassin Phase Spider troubleshooter against them?

Exceptions: Forsakers and Blackguards will Sunder equipment despite the PCs not having used it. Since it's in their nature to enjoy the breaking of the Paladin's Holy Avenger, they get to Sunder all they want.

When fighting Hydras, you can sunder multiple times in a full attack. This will never trigger my NPCs to start sundering. Neither will sundering plot items that need sundering.

 

[Legildur]

I thought the reason that we were having this conversation is that the RAW are not clear.... Which is the more likely typo: writing "melee attack" instead of "standard action," or leaving a superscriped 7 out of a table entry?

Yes, I agree that it isn't perfectly clear as it is written.

From the arguments presented here, I see two possible intereprations:

1. Sunder substitutes for a melee attack as Footnote 7 is missing from the table, the text fails to specifiy that it is a standard action, and the FAQ says so;

2. Sunder is a standard action, and that this interpretation is perfectly consistent with the rules as written and one of the original game designers uses that interepretation for his game system.

One interpretation seems to require ignoring part of what is written and is only supported by a document of dubious reliability.

The other result is perfectly legitimate (as explained very clearly by Hypersmurf and others) and is a much more satisfactory result on the application of Occam's Razor.

 

[EldonG]

Hmmm...by 'a document of dubious reliability', you mean 'everything WotC has ever released to clear up this matter, ever', right?

 

[GorTeX]

he means the FAQ...a document that admitidly has some errors and actual changing of rules when it's supposed to not make new rules.

Of course, this means that because the FAQ mentions that feint is a move action (when in fact it is a standard action) that ALL other rulings and clarifications are to be thrown out.

 

[Felix]

Of course, this means that because the FAQ mentions that feint is a move action (when in fact it is a standard action) that ALL other rulings and clarifications are to be thrown out.

Since there is so much dislike of the FAQ around here, we should list all FAQ mistakes in a thread to show the breadth of their errors.

It's not that all clarifications should be thrown out; it's that it cannot be relied upon to conclusively solve rules disputes.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I would avoid my NPCs using Sunder because the players dig having really cool equipment, and I don't want to use that tactic against them. Unless they use it themselves. It's not a problem with the mechanics of Sunder (which I think work just fine) but rather a problem of game enjoyment.

So, we are in fact in agreement. Perhaps I never explicitly said that regularly Sundering PC items makes the game suck, but I hope I gave that feeling.

I still use Sunder, but as a standard action it's not so ridiculous. When a PC has a magical weapon sundered, he usually has one more action to put it away before it gets destroyed. That's good for everyone. The bad guy accomplished his objective--even moreso because the PC likely had to waste an action to protect his item--and can even wind up with the PC's item as treasure, the player gets really anxious (in a good way) about the encounter, and the PC has a reasonable chance to have his expensive items last.

 

[PallidPatience]

I wouldn't allow anyone to sunder on a whirlwind attack anyway. It states that you're allowed a melee attack on all opponents within reach. The goblin's dagger is not your opponent; the goblin is.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So, we are in fact in agreement. Perhaps I never explicitly said that regularly Sundering PC items makes the game suck, but I hope I gave that feeling.

I still use Sunder, but as a standard action it's not so ridiculous. When a PC has a magical weapon sundered, he usually has one more action to put it away before it gets destroyed. That's good for everyone. The bad guy accomplished his objective--even moreso because the PC likely had to waste an action to protect his item--and can even wind up with the PC's item as treasure, the player gets really anxious (in a good way) about the encounter, and the PC has a reasonable chance to have his expensive items last.

Depends on if you play a loot-centric game or not. We tend to play for story rather than loot. So if the +1 flaming longsword gets Sundered during a fight, so be it. Nobody is going to cry or whine over it because we are all mature gamers. One of my fellow players buried a magic warhammer with it's owner, because of something in his background. Though I am sure in the back of his mind he was like "I wish I could keep this, but my character would really burry my defeated master with his weapon". But it made sense for the story and the character, so he did it. I've never felt a game "sucked" because my opponents got their magic weapons sundered, or I got one of my favorite weapons sundered.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, we're definitely not mature gamers.

I mean, heck, that's an oxymoron!

If we really were mature, we'd be doing something all grown-up.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I wouldn't allow anyone to sunder on a whirlwind attack anyway. It states that you're allowed a melee attack on all opponents within reach. The goblin's dagger is not your opponent; the goblin is.

Unless of course it is an intelligent magic dagger...

Seriously though... What are the rules on attended objects? I thought they were considered "part" of the character. Maybe not...