D&D 5E Is Tasha's More or Less The Universal Standard?

if you think the rapier is bad... what are your thoughts on the Longsword?
I don't think the rapier is bad; it was a tongue in cheek reply to a silly comment that was presented as absolute fact saying that one handed warriors should take the rapier. I don't think the rapier is bad. I said it was for amateurs, and I meant it but didn't mean that there were no amateur melee fighters in D&D. The rapier, as the best dex based melee weapon, is good for dex based combatants in melee. This is great for e.g. rogues, archer rangers, bladesingers, melee bards, and most other characters that can hang in melee but aren't primary melee folks. I'm tongue in cheek calling these characters amateurs.

As for why to run a strength build over a dex build it's because if your primary combat role is melee damage strength builds have a significantly higher cap in most cases.
  • 2 handed weapons are all strength based (which was accepted in the comment I was replying to).
  • Barbarian rage only gives bonus damage to melee attacks made using strength.
  • If you have the ability to get a combat feat then the highest damage one handed weapon is the staff or spear using the Polearm Master feat to allow you to attack as a bonus action and sometimes as a reaction. This, of course, only works with strength.
    • This is especially easy for fighters (who get the free feat at level 6)
    • It is also especially beneficial for for paladins (who get extra damage per attack for free at level 11 and also only need to hit to trigger smites).
    • There's even a case for melee clerics to take Polearm master although it isn't nearly as compelling due to some great bonus action spells like Healing Word, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon and to often casting rather than attacking. But the extra 1-2 attacks when attacking plus the extra d8 damage per attack are nice.
The highest damage melee characters at mid-high level, whether one handed or two handed, are therefore all strength-based. And the "just go rapier" approach is misunderstanding what the best choices are.

The longsword? If you're playing a medium sized rather than small strength based character and 1lb of encumbrance doesn't matter then the longsword is strictly better than the rapier for you because you can use it two handed for more damage. If you're going sword and board it's better than a spear or staff (d8 vs d6) until you have Polearm Master. I therefore consider it a weapon for journeyman characters :)

There are also exceptions at the edges. For example Echo Knights routinely use their bonus actions to resummon their echo so don't benefit so much from polearm master. And it's not saying you can't use a rapier as a fighter - simply that the idea that you should and by default if you are going one handed is bad advice.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Or they use cantrips. Weapon+booming Blade+movement damage is pretty high damage and it scales better than the bonus action with PAM.
There is that - assuming you get the movement damage. And if you're using cantrips you aren't getting multiple baseline attacks in most cases.
 

ECMO3

Hero
There's even a case for melee clerics to take Polearm master although it isn't nearly as compelling due to some great bonus action spells like Healing Word, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon and to often casting rather than attacking. But the extra 1-2 attacks when attacking plus the extra d8 damage per attack are nice.
As I alluded to above, I think melee Clerics are better off with magic initiate booming blade, green flame blade and Hex. Then they do not need to use the bonus action every turn to boost damage.

Another alternative is a 1-level Sorcerer or Warlock dip if you have the Charisma.
 

As I alluded to above, I think melee Clerics are better off with magic initiate booming blade, green flame blade and Hex. Then they do not need to use the bonus action every turn to boost damage.

Another alternative is a 1-level Sorcerer or Warlock dip if you have the Charisma.
This one's fair :)
 

ECMO3

Hero
There is that - assuming you get the movement damage. And if you're using cantrips you aren't getting multiple baseline attacks in most cases.
I think you will use this mostly on a build with 1 attack .... unless it is a bladesinger. Even without movement damage, in tier 2 it is very close to PAM and in tier 3 it is going to pull ahead of PAM without taking the bonus action.

Ideally you would build to get the movement damage. There are a lot of ways to do that though - the mobile feat or crusher or just playing a Goblin are the easiest (although the Goblin uses your bonus action).

Another option on a cleric is playing an Arcane human Cleric with Fey touched (Dissonant Whispers) and warcaster at level 4. This lets you cast dissonant whispers in melee and then hit with a Booming Blade as a reaction attack when they fail the save. That may sound like it is a lot (2 feats) but those are common feats for a cleric build anyway with a lot of general utility outside this neat little trick. Having a free cast of DW and ST at level 1-3 is pretty over the top powerful by itself before warcaster comes online.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Oh there's another reason to use a rapier on your Paladin. Being Small sized. Though arguably you can use a longsword in both hands (as it's not Heavy), but I've run into a few people who think this is a grey area of the rules and not intended.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Oh there's another reason to use a rapier on your Paladin. Being Small sized. Though arguably you can use a longsword in both hands (as it's not Heavy), but I've run into a few people who think this is a grey area of the rules and not intended.
A Small character can definitely wield a Longswird in both hands for a d10, and see nobreason to believe that is unintentional.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
If it was easier to find older posts, do I have some people to introduce you to!

EDIT: turns out it was easier than I thought it would be.
 
Last edited:


Oh there's another reason to use a rapier on your Paladin. Being Small sized. Though arguably you can use a longsword in both hands (as it's not Heavy), but I've run into a few people who think this is a grey area of the rules and not intended.
Those people are simply wrong. The greatclub is a two handed weapon that lacks ... pretty much any property. And versatile weapons don't even have the two handed property; Crawford confirms that they can be used with Hex Warrior.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
But either way, if you want to play a Halfling Paladin, that might make you consider a one hander. Or a Dex-build, pre-Tasha's, at least.
 

Oh there's another reason to use a rapier on your Paladin. Being Small sized. Though arguably you can use a longsword in both hands (as it's not Heavy), but I've run into a few people who think this is a grey area of the rules and not intended.
You could, but generally there is very little reason to use a longsword in two hands. You will do more damage with a rapier or longsword in one hand and the associated fighting style compared to using a longsword two handed and that fighting style I think. Plus you get to use a shield.


Not really. You fail to mention that every point you put in dex does not go to a different good stat.
Is there perhaps, some method of character generation where this is not the case, that you believe was the assumption of this discussion?

I have mentioned several times that Dex is not the primary or best stat for all characters. It is to be expected that character advancement concentrate on primary ability scores and feats, meaning that increasing secondary and tertiary scores above 14 is unlikely for most characters.

A cleric with 13 or even 15 str and 16 wis can easily increase Wis and then Con (and even taking a feat) and don't worry about AC ever. If they need initiative that badly, alert is much more useful than any increase in dex could ever be.
Indeed. If such a cleric gets heavy armour, they will probably advance Str to 15 (or 16) as well as increasing Wisdom.
I don't think chat this contradicts anything that I have said. If I am missing something, could you explain please?
The disadvantage of depending on Dex is that you need to raise it to 20 to get the full benefit (and having AC close to the heavy armor wearer).
As a cleric or paladin or probably even a fighter, I don't want that commitment. As a Paladin or cleric I migh want resilent constitution to keep my spells running reliably or charisma to increase the benefit of the paladin aura to help my allies regardless of my position in the initiative order.
So please. Dexterity is not the one and only stat. It is a generally good to have stat (as it has always been in ADnD and 3.5 and 4e).
None of these three paragraphs disputes anything that I have said. Is the post missing a quote from someone else?
 

I think that they're fully aware that small characters can use a longsword in one or two hands with no problems. - They are specifically called out as houserules, which indicate that they know the actual rules allow it.

I'm guessing the idea is to hearken back to earlier editions where there were a lot more restrictions about that sort of thing.
 

I have mentioned several times that Dex is not the primary or best stat for all characters. It is to be expected that character advancement concentrate on primary ability scores and feats, meaning that increasing secondary and tertiary scores above 14 is unlikely for most characters.
I think there's only one person who's argued Dex is the best stat for all characters; most people would argue that your primary stat (e.g. Int for wizards, Cha for warlocks). The thing is most people rank it second for almost all classes it's not actually first for (rogue/ranger/monk/archery fighter).
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
I think that they're fully aware that small characters can use a longsword in one or two hands with no problems. - They are specifically called out as houserules, which indicate that they know the actual rules allow it.

I'm guessing the idea is to hearken back to earlier editions where there were a lot more restrictions about that sort of thing.
As the poster primarily called out on this, yeah, we (our group) knows halflings can use versatile weapons one or two-handed for increase damage.

Frankly, I just find it a bit silly when a 3 ft. tall halfling wields a 3.5 ft. longsword with one hand effectively. I know longswords don't weigh a lot, but it is about the awkwardness of the length of the weapon compared to the wielder. It would be like 6 ft. tall human wielding a 7 ft. sword with one hand... 🤷‍♂️

Even with disadvantage, the idea of a halfling using a regular greatsword is a bit silly to us. I can't imaging a 6 ft. tall human using a 12-ft. long sword... So, instead of adopting "small PC" weapons, we treat regular-sized weapons as an upscaled variant for small PCs; think of it like this:

Regular dagger == small shortsword
Regular shortsword == small longsword
Regular longsword == small greatsword
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Oh there's another reason to use a rapier on your Paladin. Being Small sized. Though arguably you can use a longsword in both hands (as it's not Heavy), but I've run into a few people who think this is a grey area of the rules and not intended.
People get wild ideas about the rules.
ah jeez. Can't let small folk have nice things lol

Bet they don't give small folk a bonus to hiding or to AC against large creatures.
But either way, if you want to play a Halfling Paladin, that might make you consider a one hander. Or a Dex-build, pre-Tasha's, at least.
I just wouldn't play in that game, tbh.
 

You could, but generally there is very little reason to use a longsword in two hands. You will do more damage with a rapier or longsword in one hand and the associated fighting style compared to using a longsword two handed and that fighting style I think. Plus you get to use a shield.


Is there perhaps, some method of character generation where this is not the case, that you believe was the assumption of this discussion?

I have mentioned several times that Dex is not the primary or best stat for all characters. It is to be expected that character advancement concentrate on primary ability scores and feats, meaning that increasing secondary and tertiary scores above 14 is unlikely for most characters.

Indeed. If such a cleric gets heavy armour, they will probably advance Str to 15 (or 16) as well as increasing Wisdom.
I don't think chat this contradicts anything that I have said. If I am missing something, could you explain please?
None of these three paragraphs disputes anything that I have said. Is the post missing a quote from someone else?
Ok, so probably we are on the same page. Maybe I adressed the wrong post to you in my mind.
 

I think there's only one person who's argued Dex is the best stat for all characters; most people would argue that your primary stat (e.g. Int for wizards, Cha for warlocks). The thing is most people rank it second for almost all classes it's not actually first for (rogue/ranger/monk/archery fighter).

Dexterity is often second. But not for characters that can use heavy armor. Even as a barbarian you should think twice about investing too heavily in dex. Usually you can tank the few more hits against your slightly lower AC. Same goes for medium Armor users. Dex 12 or 14 is a wash. 1 attack in 20 where it actually matters. This is why a shield gives +2 AC, not 1, and why bless gives +1d4, not +2, because otherwise you just don´t notice it in a typical combat.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
I think there's only one person who's argued Dex is the best stat for all characters; most people would argue that your primary stat (e.g. Int for wizards, Cha for warlocks). The thing is most people rank it second for almost all classes it's not actually first for (rogue/ranger/monk/archery fighter).
I'd argue it's third behind Con, but only if you get medium armor. For light armor classes, yea, it's second.
 

dytrrnikl

Explorer
Basically how many people are you aware of using Tasha's as is out in the wild? Do DMs allow it, parts of it,not allow it or just not aware of it.

How about online for those of you who play online?

To me there's a lot of power creep in in and parts of it obsolete the phb. Only managed one short campaign before Covid restrictions killed the game.

Anyway thinking of starting a new game and drawing a line in the sand as I haven't paid much attention to post Tasha's despite owning several books eg Fizbans, Ravenloft and one of the adventures whose name I forget.

Can't play so no gaming and care factor is low atm. No gaming in-store but an event at a club/pub/bar/restaurant with 200 of my closest friends is fine yay.

Well we technically can but no one wants to game wearing masks and it's not worth the owners time opening.
Don’t use it at all. For me, it’s pointless. After the bloat of 3E and the numerous class/role books of 4E, I now just stick to the core 3 books and that’s it. If I get a player or group that pushes for material beyond the core 3, I explain why just the core 3. If that still doesn’t satisfy them, I thank them for the consideration of being their GM, then advise them to find a GM that would be a better fit for them.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top