D&D 5E Is Tasha's More or Less The Universal Standard?

Irlo

Hero
if you are not setting DCs or attacking with INT, it is pretty much a dump stat. If you aren't attacking or setting DCs with Dex you still have the most common save, the AC (unless you are in heavy armor) and initiative.
I’m not suggesting otherwise. I’m just saying that DEX is not innately superior to INT, because it depends on the character using it, and that all of the factors cited in Max’s analysis are not large factors. For some, they don’t matter at all.

I will also note that a party of adventurers will suffer if everyone dumps INT.
 

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I’m not suggesting otherwise. I’m just saying that DEX is not innately superior to INT, because it depends on the character using it, and that all of the factors cited in Max’s analysis are not large factors. For some, they don’t matter at all.

I will also note that a party of adventurers will suffer if everyone dumps INT.
yes and no...
first, as long as you have 1 player have a +1 int and train in the skills you need it doesn't matter, and an 10 int rogue with expertise in investigation is better then most 18 int trained characters by the end game.

second it just show that a wizard or artificer (unless armor) who has the most use of Int don't have heavy armor prof so they need Dex for AC, and casters in general are really good when going first.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I’m not suggesting otherwise. I’m just saying that DEX is not innately superior to INT, because it depends on the character using it, and that all of the factors cited in Max’s analysis are not large factors. For some, they don’t matter at all.
Dex is innately superior to int, because it's universally very useful to all PCs. Int is not.
I will also note that a party of adventurers will suffer if everyone dumps INT.
Yes, but have one or two that don't and you are fine. Have one or two that dump dex and you are burning through resources at a much faster rate healing them and getting them out of pits.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
It depends, though, doesn’t it?

DEX AC bonus is a small factor if you have medium armor proficiency (and a non-factor in heavy armor). Ranged and finesse attack and damage modifier are large factors … IF you use ranged and finesse weapons. If you’re slinging spells, it doesn’t matter at all. Initiative modifiers are overrated, IMO.
Exactly so! The qualitative value is subjective to a character build, not objective. Initiative can occasionally be decisive, for big fights at the end of an Adventuring day. But the roll js usually more important than the modifer anyways.
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
Int skills can definitely be huge, my first game had us rolling arcana, religion and history all the time to identify monsters, items, and enemy factions. Dex skills by comparison didn't matter much, only Stealth was really used, and it barely mattered since we had Pass Without Trace when it got really important.
 

Irlo

Hero
Dex is innately superior to int, because it's universally very useful to all PCs. Int is not.

Yes, but have one or two that don't and you are fine. Have one or two that dump dex and you are burning through resources at a much faster rate healing them and getting them out of pits.
No, it’s not universally very useful to all PCs.

I wouldn’t advocate dumping DEX, and I wouldn’t advocate always maximizing it. One can have a moderate DEX score and be just fine. Using ASIs to bump DEX is not an objectively better choice. You’ve made the case persuasively elsewhere that those extra +1s don’t matter much.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No, it’s not universally very useful to all PCs.
Name one PC class that doesn't find better initiative initiative, better AC and/or avoiding tons of damage from successful reflex saves useful.
I wouldn’t advocate dumping DEX, and I wouldn’t advocate always maximizing it. One can have a moderate DEX score and be just fine. Using ASIs to bump DEX is not an objectively better choice. You’ve made the case persuasively elsewhere that those extra +1s don’t matter much.

You don't need to maximize it for it to be universally useful. There is no PC class that wouldn't benefit from better initiative, saves and AC. There are classes that don't see the same benefit from int.
 

Irlo

Hero
Name one PC class that doesn't find better initiative initiative, better AC and/or avoiding tons of damage from successful reflex saves useful.
I didn't say they weren't useful. I said they weren't universally very useful, which was your claim.

Sure, it's better to have a higher initiative modifier than a lower one. That doesn't mean that it's better to have a higher initiative than it is to have a higher INT-based spell attack roll.

I played a dwarf battlemaster for four levels, ending in an untimely death at the horns of a minotaur. DEX was my dump stat, because I was leaning in to the archetype. I fired a crossbow a several times over those four levels, and I hit a few times. Mostly I fought melee or used thrown weapons. Frankly, I didn't want to take the time to unequip my shield. I never, ever fell into a pit. DEX would not have helped my AC. I had enough hit points to survive any failed reflex saves -- though I can't remember any particular instances in which I failed the save. Low initiative was not a big deal.

I DMed for a high DEX wizard running from level 1 to 11. She succeeded in most of her DEX saves, and she still managed to be knocked out of the fight by area of effect spells that did enough damage, even on a save, to drop her. Several times. Nearly every time that I called for a DEX save. That saving throw modifier just wasn't much benefit to her.

,You don't need to maximize it for it to be universally useful. There is no PC class that wouldn't benefit from better initiative, saves and AC. There are classes that don't see the same benefit from int.
Well, I have said (at least twice, in this thread, in conversation with you, I believe) that it's often more advantageous to have moderately high scores in multiple abilities than to have one high and one low.

In threads like this, it's easy to lose the context of the conversation. I admit I might have lost that context. But, for clarity, here's the context in which I'm making my comments:

* We're talking about the relative value of racial ASIs in different ability scores and how floating ASIs in TCoE might affect balance. So, when I say that DEX is not objectively better than INT (or any other stat), I mean, specifically, that a racial DEX ASI is not inherently better than one in INT. It depends on character and the way that character is played. I also mean that it is not universally the case that it's better to have a higher DEX than INT.

* You made a list of the ways in which DEX was better than INT, and you stated that none of the advantages that you enumerated were small factors. I said, and I maintain, that for some characters, some of those advantages are small, and some of them are non-factors all together. You simply over-stated your case.
 

ECMO3

Hero
yes and no...
first, as long as you have 1 player have a +1 int and train in the skills you need it doesn't matter, and an 10 int rogue with expertise in investigation is better then most 18 int trained characters by the end game.
If you only have one character good at investigation, your party as a whole will fail investigation checks more than if you have multiple characters with a high score and multiple reasonable chances at success. I think few Rogues are going to take investigation expertise when stealth, perception and athletics are available and not all parties have an artificer or wizard that are going to prioritize intelligence.

I am playing in a party with 3 players right now. We have a Druid with an 8 intelligence, a Fighter with a 9 intelligence and a Sorcerer-Warlock with a 13 intelligence and investigation proficiency and we are pretty gimped with no one good at the skill and only one player decent.
 

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