Is the AD&D 1E Revival here to stay?

[Nikosandros]

WOTC asked to discuss the situation, discussed it, and then dropped the matter months ago.

I must say that I'm not surprised in the least... I really couldn't see WotC doing something against OSRIC.

I also think about all the "well informed" people that were claiming how unsafe OSRIC was...

 

[Maggan]

That's the US court procedure. I'm not a US citizen and I don't submit to US law.

I distributed OSRIC from the United Kingdom, and it's the Law of England and Wales that would apply.

In the UK, our system is that the loser pays the winner's costs and legal fees. Thus any attempt to destroy OSRIC would have to be won on the legal merit of the case. Nobody could simply spend OSRIC into submission.

I would welcome any attempt, however, because I'm advised that my countersuit under antitrust law could make me a wealthy man.

Well, entities in the US have sued people in other countries before. The founder of Skype is in a lot of trouble, even though he's Swedish. And some guy in Norway was even brought to Norwegian court because the RIAA in the US demanded it. But then again, we're not talking those magnitudes here. But it has happened, and will happen, that US law will try to get their laws to bear on foreign nationals.

That said, I'm glad you have good legal counsel, and that you feel safe in your endeavor.

/M

 

[Nikosandros]

But apart from the laws... why would WotC even care about OSRIC?

 

[Rothe]

Rothe, it is the obligation for the company holding the trademark or patent to defend it. Mythmere is correct. Lets say you started a soda company and your package design was very similar to Pepsi's. However, your just 1 person in your small shop plugging away supplying a few local shops. Pepsi contacts you and requests samples which you provide. They ask you to stop informally, but you tell them "take a walk buddy". At that time Pepsi (following your logic) chooses to wait and see. Well 8 months later you land a huge deal with a multi-state grocery. Pepsi sees you suddenly as a threat. When they take you to court the judge laughs at Pepsi and throws the case out. Not only do you get to keep using the package design, but so do other companies. That would be the big "risk" involved in going after OSRIC in court. They have much more to loose then to gain.

I am not an attorney, but I'm sure there is plenty of case law which would support OSRIC's case. This applies to the publishers making OSRIC compatable modules as well. WOTC "gave up" basically. Perhaps they see zero value in this market...and given the little progress made by OSRIC in "changing the market" they may be right.

I think not being the lawyer is key. Unless mythmere is a lawyer with experience in this area I'll reserve judgment. I can say from personal experience that companies can wait and do what you describe in your Pepsi example, at least to the extent I understand your example. I think we need to leave it at that to prevent this from being too much of a legal discussion. If mythmere is an lawyer I'd love to hear if he has some cases on point or simply see a citation; no need to opine on their content I can get the cases. Now all this is by no way saying OSRIC is in violation of anything, that I really don't know especially when it comes to the OGL, which I've never read.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Well, entities in the US have sued people in other countries before.

Yes, and they could attempt to sue me in Britain too. I think they'd lose.

A key point here is that the OGL does NOT specify which law governs the agreement; and since I'm a UK citizen who distributed OSRIC from Britain, any attempt to sue would have to take place in the UK.

Depending on precisely what was alleged, under the Berne convention, it would be possible to argue that US law should apply, but in a British court and (critically) under British rules of procedure -- i.e. the loser pays for both parties' counsel even if US law is deemed to apply.

Therefore the only thing with which I need concern myself is the law. I can't be swamped by court costs.

OSRIC is lawful, so I think I have nothing to fear.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I think not being the lawyer is key. Unless mythmere is a lawyer with experience in this area I'll reserve judgment.

Mythmere is a retired US attorney (although none of us are his clients and nothing he says should be construed as legal advice.)

Edited to add: I see you asking for citations, but as I'm sure you'll understand, I don't intend to rehearse all of my legal arguments on a public messageboard.

 

[Goblinoid Games]

I also think about all the "well informed" people that were claiming how unsafe OSRIC was...

Well, you can't really hold it against people for being fearful and careful. When I decided to "go for it," so to speak, I felt that I really didn't have much to lose. I started Goblinoid Games as a small press publisher to exclusively support OSRIC (at least in the foreseeable future).

But, you can't hold it against other publishers who have established businesses and really do have a lot to lose. Many publishers have spent years building something and they don't want to see everything they have worked so hard for crumble from a legal hassle. When livelihoods are on the line, it is natural to be afraid.

I think that it would be most productive at this point to not worry so much about who is/was skeptical. It is smart to be skeptical. Rather, I think that as time goes on and OSRIC continues to be around, we should welcome all publishers who want to create OSRIC material, whether they were skeptical about it before or not.

Anyway, just IMHO.

Dan

 

[Rothe]

That's the US court procedure. I'm not a US citizen and I don't submit to US law.

I distributed OSRIC from the United Kingdom, and it's the Law of England and Wales that would apply.

In the UK, our system is that the loser pays the winner's costs and legal fees. Thus any attempt to destroy OSRIC would have to be won on the legal merit of the case. Nobody could simply spend OSRIC into submission.

I would welcome any attempt, however, because I'm advised that my countersuit under antitrust law could make me a wealthy man.

Does the OSRIC product land in the US and do you purposely avail yourself of a channel of commerce that lands the product in the US? Is your argument that the situs of any actionable act is only the UK?

I'm also pretty sure the US and UK are both signatories to international treaties on the enforcement of intellectual property, contracts, etc.; in addition to extradiction treaties. The OGL may also have provisions on governing law and where you agree you can be sued when you operate under it. If your lawyer really advised you that you have only the UK law to worry about when you distribute something through the internet to the US, and you can't be extradited, I'd be amazed, especially if Knights & Knaves Alehouse or this site are on servers in the US.

The antitrust claim is interesting, if conducted in the UK do you have the same problem that if you lose you pay the other sides fees?

 

[Nikosandros]

Well, you can't really hold it against people for being fearful and careful. When I decided to "go for it," so to speak, I felt that I really didn't have much to lose. I started Goblinoid Games as a small press publisher to exclusively support OSRIC (at least in the foreseeable future).

But, you can't hold it against other publishers who have established businesses and really do have a lot to lose. Many publishers have spent years building something and they don't want to see everything they have worked so hard for crumble from a legal hassle. When livelihoods are on the line, it is natural to be afraid.

I think that it would be most productive at this point to not worry so much about who is/was skeptical. It is smart to be skeptical. Rather, I think that as time goes on and OSRIC continues to be around, we should welcome all publishers who want to create OSRIC material, whether they were skeptical about it before or not.

Yes, you're right of course. It's just that I was a bit perplexed by the preachy tone that was used by some back then...

As for welcoming new publishers, that's a given for me. Even if I disagreed with something said by someone in the past, it doesn't certainly mean that I'm not going to look into their products... after all, that would be silly even for purely selfish reasons...

 

[diaglo]

I think the place to talk about Dragonsfoot is on Dragonsfoot, folks.

ha ha hee hee...
you said Dragonsfoot.