Is the AD&D 1E Revival here to stay?

[tx7321]

From my understanding, the managment of Dragons Foot is worried about legal issues (will OSRIC be challanged or not) and how this will effect them. I'm not sure what they think WOTC could do to them for just having a forum, but oh well.

Anyhow the window of time to challange OSRIC and its publishers (like ER) has long passed. WOTC would be laughed out of court if they tried to shut OSRIC down (or publishers using it) this late in the game (judge furrows brow and peers at WOTC lawyer: "why did your client wait so long, why didn't they send a SD letter?" etc.). Yep, that time has come and gone. In the eyes of the law OSRIC is IMHO officially "safe" (as are OSRIC publishers).

No....I don't know what DF is waiting for. It could be they don't want to take away attention from C&C (which seems to have made DF its unofficial co-home). If so, this is silly as OSRIC("AD&D 1E in Print") and C&C (more of a D20 ultra-light) go hand in hand. I know I buy both. Maybe someone just needs to ask DF for an OSRIC Forum.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

From my understanding, the managment of Dragons Foot is worried about legal issues (will OSRIC be challanged or not) and how this will effect them. I'm not sure what they think WOTC could do to them for just having a forum, but oh well.

I think it's because they produce modules, as well.

No....I don't know what DF is waiting for. It could be they don't want to take away attention from C&C (which seems to have made DF its unofficial co-home)

I doubt that's it. There are a lot of C&C fans at DF, but I get the impression that 1E has long been the main focus at DF, and I know there are regulars, there, who prefer to keep the main focus on 1E.

(Incidentally, I agree with you that OSRIC and C&C go hand-in-hand. I'm using OSRIC products in my C&C game, and it would be just as easy to use C&C products in a 1E/OSRIC game, too.)

Maybe someone just needs to ask DF for an OSRIC Forum.

Well, early-on, OSRIC created a huge furor over at DF, complete with multiple locked threads, etc. Perhaps now that some time has passed, the idea might be broached, again. I've always thought DF and OSRIC should go hand-in-hand. Not everyone agrees, unfortunately. I think Papers & Paychecks decided (after seeing the reaction at DF) not to rock the boat, there, which is one reason there isn't a stronger OSRIC presence at DF. He can address that or correct me if my impression is mistaken, though.

 

[Mycanid]

I don't know if this is a "revival" so much as it is a "publishers recognizing that there's an untapped market". Meaning that I don't expect this is going to create many new players, but will merely be serving the players who already exist. A growth in the number of available products does not imply a growth in the number of gamers playing under the system.

I agree with this one ... of course it is interesting that it pops up en masse during the past one or two years though.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I think the place to talk about Dragonsfoot is on Dragonsfoot, folks.

 

[Rothe]

From my understanding, the managment of Dragons Foot is worried about legal issues (will OSRIC be challanged or not) and how this will effect them. I'm not sure what they think WOTC could do to them for just having a forum, but oh well.

Anyhow the window of time to challange OSRIC and its publishers (like ER) has long passed. WOTC would be laughed out of court if they tried to shut OSRIC down (or publishers using it) this late in the game (judge furrows brow and peers at WOTC lawyer: "why did your client wait so long, why didn't they send a SD letter?" etc.). Yep, that time has come and gone. In the eyes of the law OSRIC is IMHO officially "safe" (as are OSRIC publishers). ...

How long has OSRIC been around? I seriously doubt the statute of limitations has run if OSRIC is in violation of WoTC IP, OGL, etc. Assuming for the sake of conjecture WoTC is gunning for OSRIC, they may be biding time gathering evidence, waiting to see if it's worth the time and money to shut down, etc. Since their attorneys probably cost upwards of $400 per hour they are not necessarily going to jump into anything. Maybe their attorneys are rather busy and haven't got that memo done yet on OSRIC. Maybe WoTC contacted OSRIC, WoTC was told to pound sand, now WoTC is getting its ducks in a row. These things could play out over months each iteration when big money is not involved.

DF may, and I say may because I really have no idea, also be concerned about their use of AD&D logos and providing AD&D modules. I don't know if they have permission to use these marks or not, but I doubt they have a perpetual license to do so. Upset WoTC, even if they can't legally stop OSRIC, and they could pull the plug on the AD&D use. Why risk it?

 

[Mythmere1]

How long has OSRIC been around? I seriously doubt the statute of limitations has run if OSRIC is in violation of WoTC IP, OGL, etc. Assuming for the sake of conjecture WoTC is gunning for OSRIC, they may be biding time gathering evidence, waiting to see if it's worth the time and money to shut down, etc. Since their attorneys probably cost upwards of $400 per hour they are not necessarily going to jump into anything. Maybe their attorneys are rather busy and haven't got that memo done yet on OSRIC. Maybe WoTC contacted OSRIC, WoTC was told to pound sand, now WoTC is getting its ducks in a row. These things could play out over months each iteration when big money is not involved.

DF may, and I say may because I really have no idea, also be concerned about their use of AD&D logos and providing AD&D modules. I don't know if they have permission to use these marks or not, but I doubt they have a perpetual license to do so. Upset WoTC, even if they can't legally stop OSRIC, and they could pull the plug on the AD&D use. Why risk it?

The statute of limitations obviously hasn't run, but TX7321 is right; the time to challenge OSRIC is past. There are other constraints than statutes of limitation involved. In essence, you can't just bide your time in a situation that you're later going to claim was damaging to you. You have to object if you know about it. WOTC asked to discuss the situation, discussed it, and then dropped the matter months ago. Having done that, they are in a situation where a court would see an enforcable right on the part of OSRIC to continue, because the OSRIC people relied upon the lack of continued objection.

You're absolutely not allowed to "rack up" damages; you're also not allowed to "see if a situation gets serious" when the legal standard isn't on a sliding scale.

WOTC would face an almost insurmountable legal hurdle if they suddenly decided to try and do something at this point.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think of OD&D as it's own game. I started with it, but before I got to the later supplements AD&D had come out (remember the Hollow World, anyone?)

I like to lump 1E and 2E into one game, not two. 2E was backward compatible. So if there is a 1E revival, I see a 1E/2E revival, as it were (yeah, the very thought of a 2E revival makes many people faint with horror. But there it is.)

3E is the Lost Game. It is a GREAT game, a great concept, but WOTC has rushed 3.5 out in only 5 years (to 2E's 15 years) and now 3E is lost in a sea of 3.5 changes and errata.

3.5? It's much like 2E, growing and changing with each new supplement. I personally like all those additions and the growth in general. Others want more simplicity.

To sum it up: Cheers to any 1E (and thus 2E) revival. Bring it on. I'll have a heaping plate of 1E/2E, with 3E and 3.5 thrown in for dessert (or, perhaps, the other way around.)

 

[tx7321]

Rothe, it is the obligation for the company holding the trademark or patent to defend it. Mythmere is correct. Lets say you started a soda company and your package design was very similar to Pepsi's. However, your just 1 person in your small shop plugging away supplying a few local shops. Pepsi contacts you and requests samples which you provide. They ask you to stop informally, but you tell them "take a walk buddy". At that time Pepsi (following your logic) chooses to wait and see. Well 8 months later you land a huge deal with a multi-state grocery. Pepsi sees you suddenly as a threat. When they take you to court the judge laughs at Pepsi and throws the case out. Not only do you get to keep using the package design, but so do other companies. That would be the big "risk" involved in going after OSRIC in court. They have much more to loose then to gain.

I am not an attorney, but I'm sure there is plenty of case law which would support OSRIC's case. This applies to the publishers making OSRIC compatable modules as well. WOTC "gave up" basically. Perhaps they see zero value in this market...and given the little progress made by OSRIC in "changing the market" they may be right.

 

[Maggan]

I am not an attorney, but I'm sure there is plenty of case law which would support OSRIC's case. This applies to the publishers making OSRIC compatable modules as well. WOTC "gave up" basically. Perhaps they see zero value in this market...and given the little progress made by OSRIC in "changing the market" they may be right.

I am not a lawyer, but I've been involved in small law suits over contract breeches. My experience is that law is not clear cut.

IMO ifWotC wants to fight OSRIC, they can and will do so, even if it's ten years from now. They don't even have to be sure of winning, as OSRIC lacks the resources to fight a legal battle. Hasbro is known to do this to protect their interest even when it's a really silly thing to do (as in the case of www.clue.com).

Basically, if WotC/Hasbro decideds to throw money at a law suit, it doesn't matter if it's now or later. At least that's what I think, but as I said I'm not a lawyer.

Logic may dictate that OSRIC is safe, but law isn't about logic, it's about the application and interpretation of law. And there's no way of guaranteeing that WotC wpn't go after OSRIC at some time or the other.

I don't think they will, but I wouldn't bet my future on it.

Then again, reading Mythmeres ost, I might just be totally wrong.

/M

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

IMO ifWotC wants to fight OSRIC, they can and will do so, even if it's ten years from now. They don't even have to be sure of winning, as OSRIC lacks the resources to fight a legal battle.

That's the US court procedure. I'm not a US citizen and I don't submit to US law.

I distributed OSRIC from the United Kingdom, and it's the Law of England and Wales that would apply.

In the UK, our system is that the loser pays the winner's costs and legal fees. Thus any attempt to destroy OSRIC would have to be won on the legal merit of the case. Nobody could simply spend OSRIC into submission.

I would welcome any attempt, however, because I'm advised that my countersuit under antitrust law could make me a wealthy man.