Is the adventuring day longer in 4th Ed?

4e, OTOH, is different. Since your in-combat healing is limited, the DM can't just rachet up the difficulty with impunity. Sure, the PCs can blow their dailies, but the real limiting factor is in-combat healing surges. So the DM should keep the EL *much* closer to APL in 4e....and thus more encounters per day in 4e.


Yes, it's a bit of a different scale. In 3.x, you could, most of the time, handle any one encounter of even ridiculous levels (APL+6, or even more sometimes). You'd be done for the day though, if not for a week lol.

In 4E, if the encounter is survivable at all, you can do several just like it in the same day - right up to the point where it's a millimeter shy of a TPK.
 

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I've never had a short adventuring day problem in any edition of D&D. But at the low levels I can create a series of bigger encounters than i ever would in previous editions. In all other previous editions I'd normally plan multiple fairly easy encounters with maybe one tough one for the adventuring day. I'd build in some rest points, lots of time for me so I could slow things down a bit since I don't always have the entire adventure built, just an outline past where i thought the party would get.

In 4e I still build in that rest point, but I have multiple challenging encounters, with one bad ass encounter at the end. There are things I don't like about 4e, but adventure pacing is not one of them.
 

I disagree. At high level there were many encounters in dungeons that did not take up much of the players resources. There were a few hard fights now and again, but most of the wandering monsters and such the fighters and melees could handle with complete ease without the caster having to cast a single spell. The only groups I've seen unable to continue on were those with groups that had wizard players that felt compelled to release as many spells as they could on every single encounter.

I found this totally true in 3e. I have not GMd 4e into the high levels so I do not know how it pans out. I guess since healing surges are not really getting more numerous, the number of encounters wont really grow much. So it will be what it is like at the low levels, which so far has been a decent# of encounters per day.

So for some it may end up being 4e more encounters early career, same # of encounters mid career, less encounters end career.(all compared to 3e)
 

My group seems to be the exception. Right now, in KoS we're getting slammed hard enough in each encounter that we have party members calling to end the day before we hit the first milestone. We've had 9 PC deaths so far (with one TPK). We've only gone through one encounter with the new party so far... tonight we might see if we change our mind.

Edit: one more bit of info: half the players are veterans of other editions, and half new. We're certainly not playing optimally yet, but this campaign has been far harder than any other edition I've seen.
 
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It really comes down to the EL then.

If you're facing lots of fights where your fighters can handle it without the casters using their top level slots then the EL was at a maximum equal to your level +1 if not lower.

Similarly, I can imagine that a 4E party that faces EASY encounters can match the number of encounters that the 3E party faces....

How high level did you get?

In 3E ELs were poorly designed. You could take on an EL+4 encounter with several lower level monsters that couldn't touch a high level fighter. A high level fighter could mow through them with power attack and great cleave.

For example, I once had a fairly high EL fight at 6th level against a ton of ogres. An Ogre is an EL3 by itself and there were 6 of them and bugbears for a much higher EL encounter. But our warrior walked up and mowed them down in a single round due to high strength, power attack with a two handed weapon, and great cleave. Wizards didn't have to expend spells.It was this way at much higher level against Giants as well.

If you noticed in 3E they had EL rooms where an opposing fighter was a CR equal to their level. Let me tell you, a lvl 15 fighter is not a CR 15 fight for an organized party. He is a piece of meat they tear apart. So say you have CR 15 fighter with a bunch of CR 10 henchmen going up against a lvl 13 party. That party is going to rip apart that that opposing force which is considered EL 15 plus. Much higher than the party.

My players crushed many encounters EL+4 at high level. Magic items built up. Priests and wizards had tons of spells to heal the party. The enemies rarely had healing. You had defensive spells that could counter most of what the enemy was trying to do.

I have wonder what the highest level you reached was. We've ran up to lvl 18 in 3.5 and average about lvl 14 or 15 with many of our 3.5 campaigns. This getting troubled by EL+2 encounters did not happen much at all save in end game encounters.

Most modules were designed where the EL was based off multiple present monsters. If you grouped one high CR monster with a bunch of low CR monsters, the party generally annihilated that room by focusing on the High Cr monster. Often times at high level the low CR monsters couldn't touch a well-geared party or were mowed down with utter ease.

I seriously doubt anyone who thinks that the 4E adventuring day is longer than 3E played to very high level or ran in standard designed encounters with one or two high CR creatures and a bunch of low Cr creatures grouped together. Or at least I would love to run in your campaigns and see if I could steam roll them.

I always wonder if most player tactics are poor and most PC casters blow off spells every encounter whether they are needed or not. I run with a few players that try to cast spells every encounter even when they aren't needed, and those groups move much slower than groups when the PC caster sits back and waits to use a spell until it is needed. Also parties that lack dedicated healing priests slow the adventuring day down as well.

But parties that have PC casters that know when to apply pressure and dedicated healing priests that take pride in being good healers, they can go on nearly forever. I've done it many times. I'd love to test against DMs that think they can design EL+3 or 4 encounters appropriately designed that think they can slow an organized, tactical party down in 3E.

I tend to think at the moment that not many people played high lvl 3E DnD and they don't have alot of experience with 4E either. So far I've run in 4E up to lvl 4 and lvl 8. 4E isn't paced badly or anything, but it does have inherent limitations on healing surges that can be probelmatic depending on how a fight goes.

And people's healing surges do not all drop at the same rate. Sometimes a striker or controller takes the brunt of the damage and their healing surges are used much faster than a defender's healing surges. But a great deal of the time the defender's healing surges run out first if they are doing their job. That usually allows for 3 sometimes 4 or 5 encounters per day depending on how tough each encounter is.

But as I said it just depends on how you are used to playing. There will most likely never be a time in 4E where an appropriate level fight will not challenge you. Monsters hit much easier in 4E than in 3E and you don't get anywhere near as many magic items.

Now I don't mind this so much as I like tough fights. The low level 4E game was a cakewalk for my party from lvl 2 to lvl 5. Once we hit lvl 6 we ran into a wall that made the encounters much tougher. The monster ACs and such begin to get very high and the inclusion of controllers and leaders with fairly potent powers has become a serious fight.

Now in 3E the high level game was poorly designed as far as rating encounters went. You could fight many encounters that may have been a high level EL or CR, but were a pathetically weak fight. That doesn't happen so much in 4E, which is nice for DMs.

But it does make the adventuring day shorter with rare exception. Everything in 4E is tougher whether it is kobold and orcs that go toe to toe with you for a long fight or a huge Otyugh that can take on the entire party by itself. Heck, our 3E party at the same level could mow down a group of Otyugh of equivalent level with fair ease and be barely touched. Now one huge Otyugh hammered our entire party knocking two of them unconcious and he was only an elite.

4E is a different game than 3E. The monsters are designed in a much better manner that make them harder to take on. I generally like 4E monster design better because elites and solos can make for a more interesting fight with one huge creature that better simulates a fantasy encounter with one huge creature than anything save for maybe dragons in 3E. But these tougher fights also drain healing and resources faster and thus shorten the day.
 
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My fault for not being clear and not stating my group's background.

We in our group never used "Multiple lower level monsters as one big EL +5" encounter. Well, we did at one point early in 3e but just like you noticed, lower level monsters quickly drop off.

Even a monster that's only 2-3 CRs off of the PC was munch for the fighters, so what we tended to use was at the least monsters of the same CR as the party or more higher level critters.
 

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My fault for not being clear and not stating my group's background.

We in our group never used "Multiple lower level monsters as one big EL +5" encounter. Well, we did at one point early in 3e but just like you noticed, lower level monsters quickly drop off.

Even a monster that's only 2-3 CRs off of the PC was munch for the fighters, so what we tended to use was at the least monsters of the same CR as the party or more higher level critters.

I see. You did what we did for end game encounters. If you did that for standard encounters, I can see you having a slower day in 3E.

3E had alot of poor encounter design and the EL/CR system was a very inexact, highly inaccurate measure of the toughness of an encounter. I never did understand how they could rate an NPC with a PC class as a CR equal to there level. I don't know how they expected groups of humanoids, even Giants, to beat a fully armed party with casters.

Haste itself was such a powerful spell even in 3.5 that it made melees into fleshmowers that massacred large groups of tough melee mobs in a few rounds. Couples that with archmage level power and most encounters were a cakewalk unless they were very well designed.

That is one area of 4E I greatly appreciate. The simplicity of encounter design and the emphasis on designing encounters with the idea of having creatures that employ teamwork like striker/soldier and controller/soldier combinations. It makes for a much more interesting fight than mow down the mass of melee mobs for a ton of xp.

As much as I like the 4E options for melee, the real problem characters in 3E were the fighters with two-handed weapons and power attack. I couldn't believe how much damage they did. I'm glad the fighters damage has been brought back to an appropriate level. It makes encounter design easier.
 

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