Is the age of discounts over?

[Schmoe]

Again, the most popular D20 gaming site on the Internet has had multiple (opt-in) polls where people have said that they don't and haven't gamed at stores and didn't get introduced to the hobby by stores.

Of course, the number of people who visit said site are only a very tiny, some might say inconsequential, fraction of the people who actually game. They are further pre-screened into those with easy internet access and a predeliction for on-line activity.

That's the way life works. Anecdotal experience doesn't really speak to much on its own.

Neither do polls of a tiny, pre-screened segment of a particular population.

In the last three places I've lived -- I'm a journalist and move around -- there's been ONE LGS and the only gaming done in the store is MTG tournaments. And two of those places were major metropolitan areas where the LGS had closed down years ago, unless you wanted to drive 30 to 40 miles to find one of the few survivors.

I learned to play at camp. My brother learned to play from me. Our group in middle school all learned to play from friends and siblings. The 11 people who have played in my Midwood campaign at different times in the past 18 months all learned the same way.

That just goes to show how wildly experiences can vary given a small sample size.

A couple of points in favor of the FLGS:

1. A FLGS provides a place for gamers to meet and play, encouraging long-term involvement in the game. Whether it is the MOST common place for gamers to play or not, it does provide increased opportunity.

2. A person with no prior RPG experience who learns the game or becomes interested in it is likely to teach his friends, creating a ripple effect. So that just one person learning the game at the FLGS can draw in potentially dozens.

3. Ryan Dancey makes his living by knowing the RPG market. I tend to think he has a better grasp on the market than either you or I, thus I'm more inclined to believe his assertions than I am to believe your or my own assumptions.

 

[Storminator]

Someone should tell all the researchers, academics and analysts that they've been wasting their time for decades. :\

None of those people use opt-in internet polling! Because it's useless!

It is exactly equivalent to Schmoe's anecdotal evidence. Or Mercule's exactly opposite anecdotal evidence.

So why don't you just admit that you're assuming your end of it, then base a conversation on that assumption, like Felix tried to do? Frex "assuming FLGS are of no value, I expect the following to happen..."

PS

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I find that assertion absurd. Unless you have hard numbers to back it up, it's no more than an unfounded assumption, and it conflicts with my own personal experience. In the last three places I've lived, I've had at least one FLGS nearby. Each had a very healthy gaming community, and it was not uncommon for new people to be introduced to the game via the store.

Please prove the inconsequence of my experiences.

But my experiences match with his, the local shops that have been in my area have zero gaming going on, I played all of 2 games at a shop in my life, a game of Talisman and one of a BSG ship combat game. None of the stores have room to devote to gaming at all.

 

[Glyfair]

PAccording to a friend of mine who is a multiple franchisee for a US convenience store chain, there are only a few products in any such store that are actually profitable in any meaningful sense: tobacco products, alcohol products, lottery tickets, porn and gasoline...and gas is what gets people to stop.

Interesting, since all the reports about high gas prices have pointed out that gas is actually has a very low profit margin today for the gas station.

Which very few people participate in. The polls done here at ENWorld suggest that most gamers have NEVER played a game at a LGS./QUOTE]

Really? Where? I don't remember seeing such a poll.

Even so, to be accurate it only has to show that they have seen games played at gaming stores and it affected a purchase decision.

 

[Mercule]

3. Ryan Dancey makes his living by knowing the RPG market. I tend to think he has a better grasp on the market than either you or I, thus I'm more inclined to believe his assertions than I am to believe your or my own assumptions.

I generally have great respect for Mr. Dancey's opinions on the gaming industry. This one seems to have so little data behind it that I'm left with the impression that it's more dogmatic than anything.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

None of those people use opt-in internet polling! Because it's useless!

Opt-in polling has been a component of academic research for decades now, as well as in many other fields.

 

[Glyfair]

Can't speak for others, but in general it's also about supporting the local economy. I buy something from a mom and pop shop, then mom and pop keep the profits and hopefully stay in business longer. They probably live nearby so spend their money nearby, and hopefully help local business stay around longer, too.

True. I forget the exact numbers but I believe that buying from a local store keeps about $9 of every $10 in the local economy and from a chain store $4 of every $10. (The accurate numbers can probably be found with a google search_.

 

[billd91]

The primary method of bringing people into the hobby is living rooms and basements, not any sort of store. The LGS is not vital to the hobby. Books being sold in places where gamers can get to them is all that's required.

I'll agree that personal spaces are the primary method of bringing people into the hobby, but I won't discount the importance of the FLGS to the hobby. Game shops enable small publishers to have a foothold in the market and they also help diversify the hobby.

For most of the time I've been a gamer, the main bookstores that carried games had D&D and little else. Some White Wolf, maybe a scattering of a few other things, rarely even Champions, almost never Traveller. How many would carry a small card game like Let's Kill, Ebola Monkey Hunt, Dungeonville or any of the Cheapass Games? How many carried Panzerblitz or Advanced Civilization? Not many.

What opened my eyes to the diversity of gaming were 2 things: my FLGS, Pegasus Games (now in its 26th or 27th year), and Dragon Magazine. And it was the FLGS that allowed me to pick up the game, read over the box, get a feel for its weight, and give me the instant satisfaction of being able to buy it and take it home to read right away. FLGS promote diversity by providing a place to browse and they ignite passion because they allow instant gratification.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

1. A FLGS provides a place for gamers to meet and play, encouraging long-term involvement in the game. Whether it is the MOST common place for gamers to play or not, it does provide increased opportunity.

That's never been in question. The argument was made that they were a critical portion of the RPG industry and there's been nothing substantial offered to suggest that, other than Ryan Dancey's word.

3. Ryan Dancey makes his living by knowing the RPG market. I tend to think he has a better grasp on the market than either you or I, thus I'm more inclined to believe his assertions than I am to believe your or my own assumptions.

And again, his company, while he was there, got out of the RPG retail market. WotC clearly does not believe it was a critical component of selling RPGs.

 

[billd91]

Opt-in polling has been a component of academic research for decades now, as well as in many other fields.

Yes, and one of the strongest critiques of Kinsey's research is that it's based on self-selected participants and not a random selection. Because of that sampling bias, his numbers are highly suspect. But then, one of his biggest goals was to find out what was out there rather than come up with really predictive models of the whole population. And for that goal, the opt-in poll is sufficient.