Is the ELH a complete train wreck?

ELH -- blows chunks or not?

  • ELH is dreadful -- wipe it from the memory of humanity

    Votes: 93 27.0%
  • ELH is okay -- needs some tinkering.

    Votes: 191 55.4%
  • ELH is brilliant! Use it! Run it! Name your kids after it!

    Votes: 31 9.0%
  • Was ist das?

    Votes: 30 8.7%

Akrasia

Procrastinator
So I just picked the *Epic Level Handbook* up for a big discount (got it for $7).

Reading through it -- what a wreck! The rules are a complete mess, based on my first pass.

The beasties have potential -- and were probably worth the moolah.

But the rules? They blow chunk-er-inos, mes amis. :D

Am I wrong? If so, why? Am I right? If so, what alternatives are there?

(Not that I have any chance of high-level play -- my players are about to level up to 4 -- but I'm interested for academic reasons.)
 

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A friend of mine had got ELH (plus I have the relevant SRD), so I could get a close look and discover it is crap. I am interested in characters past the 20th level, but overall I think this book is a total failure. Now get a look at the "blandest d20 products" thread, and you will see that many people complain the same about it. Epic spells in particular, IMO win the gold medal of crappy rules (Spellcraft checks of 312 to cast a spell - rolleyes -).

Mmmmh... as a side note, what about beginning to think about a Castle & Crusades Epic Level Handbook? ;)
 
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I don't share quite the usual negative opinion of the ELH, but it has some serious problems.

The feats-in-place-of-class-features mechanic is jarring, strange, and basically functional; it does step on the fighter's toes, though.

The Epic Feats themselves show far too much variance in power. Some are no stronger than normal feats, others are hugely effective.

Mostly, I don't like the way they handle 'epic' spellcasting (I'd rather see that system used to build spells of any level, using the regular spells/level progressions as per 20-level play.

The ELH monsters are definitely worth $7. They came from the same school of WotC monster design as the beasties in the MM2: every creature is an adventure hook unto itself.

Epic is very much a niche market, and offhand I don't know of any third-party products catering to it. So, WotC or homebrew are basically your only options if you ever play past 20.
 


MoogleEmpMog said:
... Epic is very much a niche market, and offhand I don't know of any third-party products catering to it. So, WotC or homebrew are basically your only options if you ever play past 20.

What about the *Advanced Players' Guide* from SS?

I heard they had a different Epic Level progression.

Yes, no, maybe? :confused:
 

When the ELH was coming out, I was definitely looking forward to buy it, as I was kind of considering it quite essential. Then I fortunately had the chance to borrow a copy from a friend to take a look, which gave me the opportunity to reconsider the idea of buying it :)

More or less I agree with everything said by Moogle:

MoogleEmpMog said:
I don't share quite the usual negative opinion of the ELH, but it has some serious problems.

The feats-in-place-of-class-features mechanic is jarring, strange, and basically functional; it does step on the fighter's toes, though.

The Epic Feats themselves show far too much variance in power. Some are no stronger than normal feats, others are hugely effective.

Mostly, I don't like the way they handle 'epic' spellcasting (I'd rather see that system used to build spells of any level, using the regular spells/level progressions as per 20-level play.

The ELH monsters are definitely worth $7. They came from the same school of WotC monster design as the beasties in the MM2: every creature is an adventure hook unto itself.

Epic is very much a niche market, and offhand I don't know of any third-party products catering to it. So, WotC or homebrew are basically your only options if you ever play past 20.

It's quite a long time since I kept that book for a while, but I remember that I had the same impression on epic feats, they are too different in power... how can one consider an extra +1 from Greater Weapon Focus (or whatever was called) really epic when there are feats which let a caster automatically metamagic for free entire spell levels?

Epic spellcasting is an interesting rule that many people thought it could make for a good spellcasting system since the very beginning of the game, not just at epic levels, when it is hardly balanced with nonepic spellcasting.

I know that since I haven't played at epic level at all, these are just opinions of mine, without backup from real gaming experience, but my feeling is that at epic levels there is so much variance in what can you do and which "cost" is associated with it, that basically "balance" doesn't mean the same thing as before... While this could be fine - there are eventually many groups that play at epic levels, and I suppose they have great fun - I would expect an official 3e product to actually care more about balance, after all if it's ok for me to play with unbalanced things, why shouldn't I just do that since level 1?

It seems to me that when they wrote ELH they went "let's break all the rules of what characters can do", "yes, but let's make them pay it a lot!"... an example of this is epic magic item prices: want an equivalent +11 sword? pay an extra 500k just because "it's epic" (read: "otherwise unavailable"), even if it's a net +1 compared to the best nonepic sword.

Overall however your purchase is not wasted (definitely worth the price you paid :) ), because many monsters are really cool even if they may not have a feasible CR for nonepic play, and several things can be really used in nonepic games without problems! Also you can still scatter some of the material along the adventures, such as giving an NPC the chance to cast one time only an epic spell.
 

I voted "Okay - needs some tinkering".

For one thing, most of the epic combat feats make perfectly respectable BAB 15+ prerequisite fighter feats in non-epic play. ;)

The rest of it can be tweaked to work.
 

I checked ELH in my FLGS and I thought it quite humorous. I thought it was particularly funny to see DC to stand over clouds among other silliness. It is quite obvious that WotC idea of epic is so far from mine that I would find this book even more useless that the complete useless Deities and Demigods. Quite frankly, I think that trees were sacrificed for nothing in order to print this book.
 

I paid full whack for this when it came out and was marginally disappointed. But, it is a huge book, with lots of ideas and some really great monsters. $7 is an absolute bargain. Like many others, I haven't played or DM'd at these kinds of levels yet, so I can't say for sure how broken the rules are. In fact, there seem to be far more people bemoaning the quality of the rules than there are who have actually tried them out...
 

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