Is the Executioner underpowered, not a striker or both? (or am I missing something?)

[Aegeri]

How can a straight up DPR comparison work for a class that has the capacity to do automatic 2d4+1d8+stuff damage to a creature it's grabbed

He actually has to be able to do so and forced movement and teleportation make this considerably easy for some monsters. In any event given this comparison is from exactly the same game, under exactly the same DM (me), with exactly the same player AND the same PC being changed from thief/executioner it isn't hard for me to tell what did more damage.

vs an executioner in suboptimal conditions (the assassin doesn't have someone garroted).

Also, garrotes won't work with sneak attack.

Using the garrotte actually isn't even that good, the executioner in my game was using surprising charge with a rapier. That was actually really effective, but again it isn't anything that the thief couldn't do anyway. The executioner was best when dumping as MUCH stuff into a single attack as possible. Good example of a real "dump everything" approach was:

1d8 (rapier) + 1d8 (rapier surprising charge) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack Rogue MC) + 2d10 (Assassins Strike) + 1d10 (magic item) + 1d6 (magic item) + mods + static bonus (magic item) + poison = 2d8+3d6+3d10+mods+items+poison damage. So that was a really solid nova strike and really did a lot of damage. After that his DPR was considerably unimpressive - but the initial spike damage made up for it. Even with all this, the thieves round to round DPR in any long lasting combat made it a clearly superior choice.

The other problem with the garrotte is remaining hidden from an enemy, which is sometimes absolutely impractical due to terrain, situation or enemies involved (for example, tremorsensing spiders or creatures with blindsight).

 

[keterys]

Also to keterys: Both his thief and assassin were optimized to make use of charging. As the game is dark sun many of the items to optimize it weren't there, but surprising charge certainly was. My other game has a Barbarian who almost certainly WILL be optimizing for charging, so saying it doesn't happen in a real game is a little incorrect. I have a charge optimized Slayer it would seem in my IRL game starting soon as well! Charging is just too efficient for many players not to actually do.

That's not the CharOp level of optimization - that's one decent feat - you really do need to have the vanguard, the horned helm, proning charges, preferably while surprise charging with a vs Reflex gouge and kulkor arms master for the free followup attack

 

[Aegeri]

That's not the CharOp level of optimization - that's one decent feat - you really do need to have the vanguard, the horned helm, proning charges, preferably while surprise charging with a vs Reflex gouge and kulkor arms master for the free followup attack

Yeah point taken there! The Barbarian in my Eberron game is optimizing for charging, but probably not *that* much

 

[WalterKovacs]

Yeah point taken there! The Barbarian in my Eberron game is optimizing for charging, but probably not *that* much

At least with Barbarians, the class itself tells you to optimize charging. "Here's an at-will that is works with charges while giving you bonus damage ... oh, and here's a free charge when you kill someone ... here's a rage that gives a free charge everytime you kill someone ... etc" A barbarian charging around doing tons of damage is basically exactly what you expect from a barbarian ... rogues (and assassins) less so. The strategy of the stealthy thief/ninja/assassin to run headlong into enemies seems a bit 'out of character' to say the least. Not that people shouldn't do it ... but it would be nice if that wasn't the easiest/best way to get the most damage out of those kinds of characters.

 

[Neverfate]

At least with Barbarians, the class itself tells you to optimize charging. "Here's an at-will that is works with charges while giving you bonus damage ... oh, and here's a free charge when you kill someone ... here's a rage that gives a free charge everytime you kill someone ... etc" A barbarian charging around doing tons of damage is basically exactly what you expect from a barbarian ... rogues (and assassins) less so. The strategy of the stealthy thief/ninja/assassin to run headlong into enemies seems a bit 'out of character' to say the least. Not that people shouldn't do it ... but it would be nice if that wasn't the easiest/best way to get the most damage out of those kinds of characters.

Well, that's using the assumption that someone is wanting to play a stealthy thief. My rogue, before essentials, was an artful dodger build. It's hard to be a stealthy daredevil doing back flips and wall runs and general parkour tricks (and my character loves to be seen/heard). All of my powers were based around movement and charging and tricks. When the Thief came out I immediately switched over because it was more in fitting with my character.

As far as Executioners. . . well my Executioner screamed that he was the best assassin in the world while making stealth checks (taking massive penalties) because there isn't many benefits to being hidden (CA, a few items that give bonus damage), but there's plenty of benefits for running up to people and stabbing them in the face (charging or not). Even the Design and Development article devs said they didn't see the Executioner as a ranged character (and seemed surprised that people wanted multiple poison uses for ranged weapons....apparently forgetting the fact that one guild IS RANGED BASED). That's just the nature of 4E, I guess.

 

[Osgood]

My buddy is playing an executioner in one of our games, and he is pretty underwhelmed. His damage output is consistently lower than the dagger-wielding rogue, and my defender (an avenging paladin with a fullblade). This particular game is an Eberron game with a lot of intrigue and subterfuge, so I'm sure he will get a chance to shine in those areas, but so far it hasn't quite worked out that way.

 

[Droogie128]

This particular game is an Eberron game with a lot of intrigue and subterfuge, so I'm sure he will get a chance to shine in those areas, but so far it hasn't quite worked out that way.

Problem is, so will the rogue.

 

[RangerWickett]

So how would you fix it?

 

[Mengu]

1d8 (rapier) + 1d8 (rapier surprising charge) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack Rogue MC) + 2d10 (Assassins Strike) + 1d10 (magic item) + 1d6 (magic item) + mods + static bonus (magic item) + poison = 2d8+3d6+3d10+mods+items+poison damage. So that was a really solid nova strike and really did a lot of damage. After that his DPR was considerably unimpressive - but the initial spike damage made up for it. Even with all this, the thieves round to round DPR in any long lasting combat made it a clearly superior choice.

Sounds pretty much like the build I was going for, except I was adding Furious Assault d8, Venom Hand Assassin d8. Not sure where the 1d10 magic item is coming from (would like to know), but I did have vanguard 1d8. And uh, you forgot Attack Finesse d8. My level 12 build was ending up with:

Rapier 1d8
Attack Finesse 2d8
Surprising Charge 1d8 (CA)
Vanguard 1d8
Horned Helm 1d6
Furious Assault 1d8
Venom Hand 2d8
Assassin's Strike 5d10
Sneak Attack 3d6 (CA)
Dex +6
Enhancement +3
Item +4
Light blade expertise +2 (CA)
Giantkind Gloves +2
Poison (Greenblood oil) +10

8d8+4d6+5d10+27 (104.5) damage on a hit. Enough to take out artillery or lurkers, but slightly shy of reducing a skirmisher or soldier to less than 10 hit points unless you get a lucky damage roll, and definitely not enough for a brute. I counted poison up there, but if there are more than 3 encounters in the day, you obviously run out.

I was trying for the one shot one kill without an action point, and the build manages to do it at level 3-5ish, but then falls just shy from then on, with the gap increasing through paragon (haven't checked epic). With an action point or an item daily free attack, obviously you can finish anything off, but everybody and their aunt seems to be able to do that too.

 

[Osgood]

Problem is, so will the rogue.

Very true. There are six players in the group so there is a fair amount of overlap any way you look at it.