Another nice thing about the executioner (Red Scales at least) is that where damage is concerned they're nearly as effective at range as they are in melee, which gives them nice versatility. I'm playing one in our Eberron group and the ability to switch from range to melee depending on the situation means I'm consistently able to have the maximum possible impact at any given moment, regardless of whether it's a wide-open field or a tight passageway we're fighting in.
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Is the Executioner underpowered, not a striker or both? (or am I missing something?)
- Thread starter Ninja-to
- Start date
Neonchameleon
Legend
The executioner is weaker than the thief. But if you go Essentials Only, damage isn't too far behind a slayer and the Executioner gains a lot of utility to make up for it. At least as long as you can get a few garrottings off if you're going melee... (Executioners need another d4 worth of damage so their one handed weapons can match the two handers - which is why rogues get the extra d6s on sneak attack).
To me the star weapon is the garrotte - if I'm not exploiting that I'd rather play a rogue or thief. But it's very accurate if you can use it, does decent damage, it's control, and it's got great synergy with one of the poisons (dazing a grabbed target means they only get their standard to either attack or escape). I just wish there was some way of preventing forced movement from breaking grabs...
To me the star weapon is the garrotte - if I'm not exploiting that I'd rather play a rogue or thief. But it's very accurate if you can use it, does decent damage, it's control, and it's got great synergy with one of the poisons (dazing a grabbed target means they only get their standard to either attack or escape). I just wish there was some way of preventing forced movement from breaking grabs...
Ninja-to
First Post
Some interesting comments here. A lot to digest but I'm re-reading this Executioner as it seems a lot more interesting than I thought.
One thing I did notice though is that in the class description is says you get proficiency with light shields, and even tells you 'buy a light shield' as part of your starting equipment. Then on the next page it tells you to choose your bonus feat, between lights shields and two weapon defense. This looks like another error. (sigh)
One thing I did notice though is that in the class description is says you get proficiency with light shields, and even tells you 'buy a light shield' as part of your starting equipment. Then on the next page it tells you to choose your bonus feat, between lights shields and two weapon defense. This looks like another error. (sigh)
DracoSuave
First Post
It's additional damage that does not result from a crit, so it would be maximised like any other additional damage.
DracoSuave
First Post
That's why you put your defender there, so if the forced mover tries to push you off, they'll take free punishment regardless.
Obryn
Hero
I love the non-combat poison uses for the Executioner. More than any other class, the Executioner encourages out-of-combat deviousness and creativity with their powers. Their poisons are intensely powerful, but obviously require a game DM.
If your DM is more apt to screw you over, of course, and never let your out-of-combat poison preparations work, Executioners are a lot less viable.
-O
If your DM is more apt to screw you over, of course, and never let your out-of-combat poison preparations work, Executioners are a lot less viable.
-O
Main problem with the executioner is scaling, like many essentials classes despite assassin's strike looking impressive dice wise it starts to fall behind at paragon/epic. It does work a lot better than the OAssassin, but I've used the analogy before but that's like saying a heavyweight boxer could take a 5 year old (so isn't very relevant). I did have an executioner in my Dark Sun game, but an Anakore killed him and he's now playing a Hexblade who doesn't have fantastic damage but definitely has some great control elements.
What I found while he was alive was that Death attack was most useful against enemies with insubstantial as a quality. It can amount in an instant effective 20+ damage bonus, really helping to get rid of those creatures without needing to hit them again. Assassin's strike + sneak attack (Rogue MC) was pretty effective as well, but could only be used once per encounter. Once he blew his "load" (so to speak) his every day DPR was actually not very good. In fact I kept a reasonable track of the assassin in that game vs. when he was a thief at the start. In general, the thief did far more overall damage over the encounter, while the assassin had a better spike.
At the same time, the assassin's damage spike wasn't significantly better than the thieves. On an attack + AP the thief due to how reliable their sheer "every day" DPR is got really close to the assassin easily. Not to mention the thief is so ridiculously accurate that he hit far more often as well. If a fight went over a long period, the thief easily beat the executioner in total damage hands, feet and pretty much every other limb wise easily. It's hard for me to think the executioner is really underpowered though, because it has some really great features and assassin's strike (if used well) can be very handy. Overall though, I think a more reliable striker like a thief works better. Plus the executioner in that game was practically feat taxed venom hand master if he wanted to do jack with poisons, because many of their enemies are undead.
Also to keterys: Both his thief and assassin were optimized to make use of charging. As the game is dark sun many of the items to optimize it weren't there, but surprising charge certainly was. My other game has a Barbarian who almost certainly WILL be optimizing for charging, so saying it doesn't happen in a real game is a little incorrect. I have a charge optimized Slayer it would seem in my IRL game starting soon as well! Charging is just too efficient for many players not to actually do.
What I found while he was alive was that Death attack was most useful against enemies with insubstantial as a quality. It can amount in an instant effective 20+ damage bonus, really helping to get rid of those creatures without needing to hit them again. Assassin's strike + sneak attack (Rogue MC) was pretty effective as well, but could only be used once per encounter. Once he blew his "load" (so to speak) his every day DPR was actually not very good. In fact I kept a reasonable track of the assassin in that game vs. when he was a thief at the start. In general, the thief did far more overall damage over the encounter, while the assassin had a better spike.
At the same time, the assassin's damage spike wasn't significantly better than the thieves. On an attack + AP the thief due to how reliable their sheer "every day" DPR is got really close to the assassin easily. Not to mention the thief is so ridiculously accurate that he hit far more often as well. If a fight went over a long period, the thief easily beat the executioner in total damage hands, feet and pretty much every other limb wise easily. It's hard for me to think the executioner is really underpowered though, because it has some really great features and assassin's strike (if used well) can be very handy. Overall though, I think a more reliable striker like a thief works better. Plus the executioner in that game was practically feat taxed venom hand master if he wanted to do jack with poisons, because many of their enemies are undead.
Also to keterys: Both his thief and assassin were optimized to make use of charging. As the game is dark sun many of the items to optimize it weren't there, but surprising charge certainly was. My other game has a Barbarian who almost certainly WILL be optimizing for charging, so saying it doesn't happen in a real game is a little incorrect. I have a charge optimized Slayer it would seem in my IRL game starting soon as well! Charging is just too efficient for many players not to actually do.
Or LFR where I played my Executioner through heroic. There's no deviation in those adventures. I can't even poison my allies because you have to ask permission. Boo. Nature of that beast.
Still, I'd play a thief over an executioner any day (or a o-4e Rogue really. Much more rewarding control and can get that multiclass garrote feat).
DracoSuave
First Post
How can a straight up DPR comparison work for a class that has the capacity to do automatic 2d4+1d8+stuff damage to a creature it's grabbed, given that there's no real way to calculate the ability of the creature to escape the grab?
I just don't see straight-up comparisons between the two classes to really be appropriate given that said comparisons tend to be a rogue in optimal conditions (the rogue has combat advantage) vs an executioner in suboptimal conditions (the assassin doesn't have someone garroted).
Also, garrotes won't work with sneak attack.
I just don't see straight-up comparisons between the two classes to really be appropriate given that said comparisons tend to be a rogue in optimal conditions (the rogue has combat advantage) vs an executioner in suboptimal conditions (the assassin doesn't have someone garroted).
Also, garrotes won't work with sneak attack.
Except for the multiclass feat that allows for it. Unfortunately it does eat up the multiclass options. But with a few items and the power swaps the MC offers it can be devastating. It's actually the reason I stopped playing the Executioner. I couldn't outdo the rogue in my party that was out-strangling me...that sounded awful.
