Mort_Q
First Post
Right. Light blade only though... so low damage. It's all fairly well balanced. Mostly.
Is the Monk overpowered?
- Thread starter Zaran
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Right. Light blade only though... so low damage. It's all fairly well balanced. Mostly.
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
The weapon damage doesn't matter as much as one might think, especially when you can add in sneak attack damage almost every hit.
Hell, I came within an inch of taking Power Attack, as I was often hitting on a 3 or better with my rogue with Piercing Strike.
Brad
Accurate superior implement is actually balanced. Other are underpowered.
Think about it:
Superior implement should be a comparable option to Superior weapon proficiency.
Superior weapon proficiency nets you either +1 average damage per die (Bastard sword, Craighammer) or +1 attack (Triple-headed flail) with all your powers.
Accurate implement nets you +1 attack with all your powers.
But, say, Ashen rod offers +1 attack vs. reflex and +2/3/4 damage per tier with fire powers. It limits your power selection drastically for a paltry + 2/3/4 bonus to damage.
Make no mistake, implement users are still underpowered in damage department. Monk's damage won't come even close to a well-built ranger with Called Shot/Prime Quarry bonuses or Rogue with enormous crits and +2/3/5d6 dice of sneak attack. Charging barbarian with vanguard weapon and horned helm still deals +1/2/3d6 +2d8 damage with charge attack, ...
That being said, Monk has some cool options (Starblade flurry, Staff combo, ...)
Think about it:
Superior implement should be a comparable option to Superior weapon proficiency.
Superior weapon proficiency nets you either +1 average damage per die (Bastard sword, Craighammer) or +1 attack (Triple-headed flail) with all your powers.
Accurate implement nets you +1 attack with all your powers.
But, say, Ashen rod offers +1 attack vs. reflex and +2/3/4 damage per tier with fire powers. It limits your power selection drastically for a paltry + 2/3/4 bonus to damage.
Make no mistake, implement users are still underpowered in damage department. Monk's damage won't come even close to a well-built ranger with Called Shot/Prime Quarry bonuses or Rogue with enormous crits and +2/3/5d6 dice of sneak attack. Charging barbarian with vanguard weapon and horned helm still deals +1/2/3d6 +2d8 damage with charge attack, ...
That being said, Monk has some cool options (Starblade flurry, Staff combo, ...)
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2/3/4 is hardly paltry. It's a striker feature-level boost. Adding those up is how you get to the big numbers.
Sure, 9W attacks let a Barbarian hit the big numbers with a big weapon. But implements are -supposed- to be slightly different from weapons--more element-centered and effect based rather than straight damage based (which might explain things like Forceful, which is kinda awesome for a superior implement property for the right character).
Don't forget Empowered Crit and Deadly, too, if you're looking for damage without having to restrict your powers.
But yes. Weapon users get Superior Weapon Prof -- which usually gets them +1 per die and a property or +1 to hit. So Superior Implement Prof covers the gap from the other end, letting Implement users get +1 to hit or a damage bonus (better than +1 per die on at wills, worse on encounter/daily powers) plus some special like Forceful, +1 to hit on a defense, or Empowered Crit. It's a fine way to balance things better (and I suspect there'll be Superior Ki Foci in Psionic Power).
Sure, 9W attacks let a Barbarian hit the big numbers with a big weapon. But implements are -supposed- to be slightly different from weapons--more element-centered and effect based rather than straight damage based (which might explain things like Forceful, which is kinda awesome for a superior implement property for the right character).
Don't forget Empowered Crit and Deadly, too, if you're looking for damage without having to restrict your powers.
But yes. Weapon users get Superior Weapon Prof -- which usually gets them +1 per die and a property or +1 to hit. So Superior Implement Prof covers the gap from the other end, letting Implement users get +1 to hit or a damage bonus (better than +1 per die on at wills, worse on encounter/daily powers) plus some special like Forceful, +1 to hit on a defense, or Empowered Crit. It's a fine way to balance things better (and I suspect there'll be Superior Ki Foci in Psionic Power).
It is a boost comparable to single feat (Githzerai blade master) which adds bonus to all your powers. And Weapon focus (staff), which works with implement attacks is better, since it also applies to all your powers.
+2/3/4 is paltry when you can choose power that's better by large margin (say, fireball vs. stinking cloud).
But, you are right. The real paltry thing here is gaining +1 to hit vs. single defense. Only crystal orb is worth it, really.
+1 to hit is strictly better on an at-will if you deal more than 20 damage at heroic, 30 at paragon and 40 at epic. And that should be minimum for stirkers, especially if they are multi-target like monk.
EDIT: Ooops, I misunderstood you. I tought you are comparing +1 to hit vs. +2/3/4 damage. The superior weapon prof. thing is really a +2 vs. +3 prof. weapon comparision; and for some classes (or better - roles: leader and controller) +1 to hit is always better. Lead the attack may deal 3[W]+Str damage, but you really want it to hit more than you want +3 damage.
As for implements, Empowered crit really adds just about 0.5 damage per attack, and Shielding is keyed to hitting. It's best of the rest compared to Accurate, but still shielding + anything else < Accurate. Forceful and Distant are just minor benefits, and they are worst of the bunch. Crystal Orb gives +1 vs. will and +2/3/4 psychinc damage, and is best for illusionst wizards and telepathic psions, which are pretty effective. It's only thing usefull besides Accurate staff/wand/orb/...
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Droogie128
First Post
Weapon damage isn't a huge factor for rogues. Daggers are only d4 and are basically the best weapons a rogue can wield because of the +1 to hit and the Daggermaster Paragon Path. Hitting is the most important thing, making sure you get sneak attack and applying all those nice rider effects on your powers.
Not to derail any further, monks are anything but overpowered. I do love their mobility though, and their ability to really spread around the damage.
keterys
First Post
The +2/3/4 damage obtained from the other implement types stacks with feat bonuses, which means you can't really compare to Weapon Focus or Goliath Greatweapon Training. Also, very few superior weapons actually give a +1 attack as their benefit - just Flails and Greatspear - and they never go above the baseline presented (you can get +3 without superior, you can't get +4 with it). So, claiming that Accurate is balanced for a feat slot and the others are underpowered is not a logically analyzed statement. It is a perfectly valid opinion that implement users deserved it though - a lot of people felt that implement users were underpowered.
I am a little sad that the generic gimme approach is once again the best option, and wish the more flavorful options were not mechanically worse. Oh well.
I am a little sad that the generic gimme approach is once again the best option, and wish the more flavorful options were not mechanically worse. Oh well.
I agree. Mechanical bonuses have proven to be the best in 4e - Iron Armbands of Power, Radiant Weapon, Staff of Ruin, Weapon focus, Expertise (a math fix, but it's still the best feat in game) ... It is sad, really.
As an aside, given that Implement users have Superior option now, should't there be an Implement focus feat? Dual Implement spellcaster isn't exactly accesible to everyone.
Sorry for overuse of bold. Just wanted to add some emphasis on certain points.
Droogie128
First Post
Implement users benefit from weapon focus, so that wouldn't be necessary.
Well, you can't take, say, Weapon focus (orb).
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