Is The Paladin Weak?

[Romus]

I never liked the Paladin's Mount. I'm thinking of giving Paladins the option of swapping the mount for two feats (not at the same level) or the ability to freely multiclass with the Fighter class.

 

[Romus]

How about this to replace Mount?

Anointed At 5th level the Paladin is anointed and gains +1 Charisma and +3 Hit Points. He must be anointed by a cleric or Paladin of 10th level or higher (of the same faith?). The Paladin and the one doing the anointing must fast for one day. The ceremony takes place the next morning and must be done at a holy alter.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi everyone,

I have had quite a bit of fun playing a Paladin of Fiarle - God of courage, honor, duty etc. etc.
He has just recently gained his 5th feat - Mounted Combat to join Leadership, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Power Attack and Weapon Expertise. He has nice Strength and Charisma and decent Wisdom and Intelligence.
He called his Dire Lion Mount Alla'Mombassa just recently and so he greatly appreciates this new feat.

Is he weak? Most certainly not!
Is he the toughest in the group? No.
Is he the one that other party members can rely upon to get the job done and the person that others look to for leadership and purpose? Most certainly!!!

The role of the Paladin is what is important, not the size of the chunks he can peel off the opposition in melee - although as some have already mentioned, have him Smite Evil with a Charging Lance and that is enough to have most enemies peeing their pants.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that a Paladin is not a Knight. Similar but different.

For those of you who want to play a knightly Paladin, may I suggest the following: treat the Paladin Class as a Prestige Class. Build up as a Fighter who espouses all the virtues of the Paladin and their Deity and take advantage of the bonus feats. Then when you have finally reached the levels of devotion required of the Paladin, start taking Paladin Classes and don't look back.

Some have mentioned going Paladin then Fighter but this seems totally backwards to me. Why would a Paladin wish to turn his or her back on their deity for the express purpose of getting more "mortally" powerful. This seems the quickest path to the Blackguard to me.

In terms of balance, I would say that a 10th level Paladin and a 10th level Fighter are about equal. What the Fighter picks up in feats, the Paladin more than compensates for in other abilities. The only qualification I would make to this is that we play a role-playing orientated game where Prestige and Heroics are paramount, not the bonuses to hit. For those who prefer a wargame style version of D&D, the point of the Paladin being "weak" most probably has some level of validity.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Alhandra]

For those who prefer a wargame style version of D&D, the point of the Paladin being "weak" most probably has some level of validity.

What do you think the D&D rules ARE?

 

[Gargoyle]

I agree James.

However, almost all of the posts here are using feats as combat advantages as opposed to things that help characters do things ranging not only from leading the people through say Skill Focus on Diplomacy to unique feats that give characters more class skills.

Yes, it's good to note that it isn't merely how many feats people get, it's the cost of them. Whirlwind Attack, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Quicken Spell all cost the same as Skill Focus (Diplomacy) or Toughness. They all cost 1 feat slot. A player optimizing his character for combat will never take a weak feat over a strong one. Even many roleplayers will hesitate to make a character weaker than the rest of the group; no one wants to slow the rest of the party down. It's very campaign dependent...are you the type of DM that gives them appropriate rewards for using Diplomacy, thus making Skill Focus (Diplomacy) useful, or do your monsters never negotiate? Give them more feats in a campaign where combat is the most important part of the game, and they'll choose combat feats.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Part of customizing your character is creating a fighting style. Seven feats to create a paladin's fighting style may seem like enough on paper, but in actual play that paladin may only get to 10th level or so before the campaign is over, meaning that you've got only four feats to work with, less at lower levels. It could take 6 months of play to get to 6th level in some campaigns, meaning that for 6 months you've got two feats to help characterize the way your paladin fights. That doesn't seem like enough for any class, IMO. To me, feats add a lot of flavor to a character's personality, even if the feats are combat oriented.

I think that in many ways, D20 Modern solved a lot of the issues some people have here. The whole talent one level bonus feat another works well. Not to mention occupations. Good stuff there.

I agree, especially with the part about talents and bonus feats. And while d20 Modern characters get more feats, their class and occupation limits what they can choose, so that the non-combat feats are often chosen. Giving D&D player characters more feats while adding more restrictions on what they can pick might be the best approach. Replacing some static class abilities in a future edition with customizable talents would be cool as well. I see no reason why every 10th level paladin (or druid, or whatever) should have exactly the same class abilities.

As far as Shark's original comments, he's got one hell of a campaign going but it's not close to baseline D&D. Paladins are merely a combination of weak clerics and okay fighters.

What about the paladin really ties it into knighthood? The lay on hands? The spells? The horse summoning ability? I'd say the Smite does but none of the other divine abilities are really about being a knight as much as they are being a divine champion.

The Lawful alignment, Code of Conduct, and heavy armor proficiency cause paladins to lean in the direction of a knightly order. The special mount in 3.0 and earlier also did this, but I agree that the new ability detracts from the archetype. (Most knights do not have horses that don't magically appear and disappear) Additionally, art and descriptions of paladins in past products promoted a knightly archetype for paladins. So I can understand wanting to emulate a knightly archetype with the class. Even if you don't do so, having more feats could help you customize your character more, which is good for swashbuckling paladins, highly charismatic sorcerer/paladins, ultra lawful monk/paladins or any other archetype you can come up with.

But having said all that, I don't plan on actually giving my player characters more feats anytime soon. It opens a can of worms that I'd rather leave shut for now, and it would be painful to have to take it away from them if it didn't work out. It would be nice to see more in a 4th edition sometime in the distant future. For now, if a player comes to me complaining that they don't have enough feats, I usually allow them to drop a class ability to get an extra one, and that usually works fine.

 

[Fedifensor]

I'm surprised no one has pointed out the true glass jaw of the Paladin - stats.

Under standard point buy, the Paladin is wimpy, wimpy, wimpy. Especially if you're building him for the long haul. You need Str (especially for wearing that full plate), Con, Wis (14+ is essential at high levels for 4th level spells - and I wouldn't rely on an item for that), and Cha (preferably 16+ to get good saves and healing). Add a Dex of 12 to get an AC bonus in full plate, and at least a 10 Int to have some skills, and your looking at a 30 or 32-point buy just to be competent.

Meanwhile, the fighter or barbarian focus on the physical stats, leaving Wis and Cha at 8, and Int at 10 (unless you want Combat Expertise). Which means the fighter hits more often, does more damage, and takes more hits before you add in his extra feats. Even if the fighter doesn't minmax...he's got stat points to burn. The paladin never has that luxury.

If you're in a game with 30+ points for stats under point-buy, the paladin is playable. Anything less, and you're playing a 2nd-tier fighter-type with a few minor special abilities.

 

[Olive]

Under standard point buy, the Paladin is wimpy, wimpy, wimpy. Especially if you're building him for the long haul. You need Str (especially for wearing that full plate), Con, Wis (14+ is essential at high levels for 4th level spells - and I wouldn't rely on an item for that), and Cha (preferably 16+ to get good saves and healing). Add a Dex of 12 to get an AC bonus in full plate, and at least a 10 Int to have some skills, and your looking at a 30 or 32-point buy just to be competent.

Except that's an ideal, not 'compenent'. You don't NEED the 12+ dex, or a con better than 10. Nice? sure, but necessary no. You don't get 4th level spells till much later on. You can happily have a 12 for wis to start with. 10 Int is good, but again, not essential, and the same can be said for the rest of those.

If your paladin needs CHa for the saves, then surely your barbarian or fighter needs WIS even more. Otherwise every enchantment is going to make them usefless.

This is like one of those arguments where players say "i need more skill points and feats" because there are more skills and feats than they can take. Sure, high abilities are nice, but not essential.

 

[Fedifensor]

Except that's an ideal, not 'compenent'. You don't NEED the 12+ dex, or a con better than 10. Nice? sure, but necessary no. You don't get 4th level spells till much later on. You can happily have a 12 for wis to start with. 10 Int is good, but again, not essential, and the same can be said for the rest of those.

Well, let's see if we can agree on what is necessary versus what is 'nice'...

Strength - NEED 14+ (you're a front-line fighter who is expected to hit on a reasonable basis, deal reasonable damage, and wear heavy armor). NICE is 16+.
Dexterity - NEED 10+ (front-line fighters shouldn't be taking AC penalties). NICE is 12, anything more is unnecessary unless you have mithral armor.
Constitution - NEED 12+ (front-line fighters are expected to be able to take hits). NICE is 14+.
Intelligence - NEED 10+ (especially if you choose something besides human as a race, you don't want skill point penalties). NICE is 12, and anything more means you're a skill junkie or taking Combat Expertise.
Wisdom - NEED 12+ (you only get five stat points over 20 levels, and you will want to raise your Charisma as well). NICE is 14, anything more is gravy.
Charisma - NEED 14+ (anything less doesn't take advantage of your class abilities - which is why you're a paladin to begin with). NICE is 16+.

Totals:
NEED - 24...or your entire stat allotment minus 1 point for standard point buy.
NICE - 40...or more points than any point-buy in the DMG gives.

I think most people like to have a little flexibility in placing stats. The fighter can get their needs met with 8 fewer points than the paladin (14 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha), which leaves a lot more points to flesh out the character. The fighter also has up to three 'dump' stats if they want to maximize fighting capability with the remaining points. The only dump stat for paladins is Intelligence, and you're going to want at least 2 skill points a level, if not more. Just the standard combat functions of a paladin require Ride and Concentration, and a well-rounded paladin has several other skills to add.

Also remember that when the paladin gains levels, 2 extra stat points on Wisdom is 2 less stat points for Charisma or Strength. Since the extra stat points don't worry about the increasing costs you face in point-buy, it's far more effective to dump them all in one stat instead of spreading them about...and to choose a stat that was 14+ to begin with.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I certainly wouldn't play a Paladin under the point buy system. Why bother? You have too many stats that need to be good and would be seriously lacking somewhere. Classes like Monk and Paladin aren't good using point buy for stat generation.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
Likewise the Paladin looks great on paper. Look at all those neat abilities! Surely each is worth about a feat, right? But they are not because they rarely save your butt when standing next to a Big Boss monster -- a Smite Evil or two doesn't cut it.

From this I am gathering you have not played a paladin lately. I am playing one, and there is quite a lot you can do. You are considered to be part of the church, and you are a martial warrior. In most generic fantasy worlds this places you a little bit behind actual landed nobility, giving you lots of leverage in asking for shelter, access to old records, etc. Most paladins have good Charisma scores, meaning they are often the spokespeople of the party to important people (like actual nobles, upper church officials, good or lawful outsiders, etc). My 6th level paladin has a +21 to his Diplomacy check - it's insane! Even taking into account the nature of battle he can reasnoably use an action to halt combat (-10 for in-combat use, DC 20 to change a hostile encounter to a unfriendly one, DC 30 to make them indifferent). [/B]

I have been playing a paladin. Not in 3.5, but in 3.0 with minor house rules that give a few bennies like extra smites. It is really not that different from 3.5.

I have plenty of fun outside of combat--my diplomacy skills are excellent and I use them constantly.

I get the snot beaten out of me when the fighting begins almost every time. I would bet I suck up two or three times as much damage as I dish out even though I am well armored. I have pretty much given up on killing anything. My job is to stand in the front and distract the enemy for a round or three while other PCs pound away.

Sure I am carrying my weight. But my combat role is about as glamorous as playing a pacifistic healing cleric (except the cleric gets the safety of standing in the back).

The mounted combat route is plausible in 3.5 now that I would be able to summon a mount in. But investing all my precious few feats in one specialized attack style pretty much guarantees I am a gawdy punching bag if I am not atop my mount.