Is The Paladin Weak?
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Anubis the Doomseer
First Post
Re: re
Originally posted by Celtavian
My Need's and Nice's are very different from yours. I wouldn't want to play a male Paladin with less than the following stats:
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 16
That is 36 points. That is my minimum heroic Paladin,
Well, I wouldn't want to play one without 6 18s across the board, but my DM doesn't care how blue in the face I get holding my breath for it. This is just unrealistic in terms of expectations - a certainly a hold over from 2e when you had to have high stats or nothing else.
The paladin I play has the following (we rolled the stats, simple 4d6, drop lowest, arranged to taste):
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 18
Originally my strength was lower, but I've been putting points into it from levelling. Instead of trying to play like a fighter (tank, heavy armor, two handed weapon), I play to my strengths - medium armor, charisma boosters, and diplomacy. I still hold my own in combat, acting as the party tank (due to my auras). I would suck at being the full plate and greatsword, but that isn't the sole role for paladin.
I'm kind of glad they dropped the point buy from the Revised PHB. It was a worthless and boring system of character generation.
It isn't gone, it's still in the DMG.
I would never play a character with a below average stat like an 8 unless I was playing a particular concept that called for it,
This tells me all I need to know.
- Ma'at
Originally posted by Celtavian
My Need's and Nice's are very different from yours. I wouldn't want to play a male Paladin with less than the following stats:
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 16
That is 36 points. That is my minimum heroic Paladin,
Well, I wouldn't want to play one without 6 18s across the board, but my DM doesn't care how blue in the face I get holding my breath for it. This is just unrealistic in terms of expectations - a certainly a hold over from 2e when you had to have high stats or nothing else.
The paladin I play has the following (we rolled the stats, simple 4d6, drop lowest, arranged to taste):
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 18
Originally my strength was lower, but I've been putting points into it from levelling. Instead of trying to play like a fighter (tank, heavy armor, two handed weapon), I play to my strengths - medium armor, charisma boosters, and diplomacy. I still hold my own in combat, acting as the party tank (due to my auras). I would suck at being the full plate and greatsword, but that isn't the sole role for paladin.
I'm kind of glad they dropped the point buy from the Revised PHB. It was a worthless and boring system of character generation.
It isn't gone, it's still in the DMG.
I would never play a character with a below average stat like an 8 unless I was playing a particular concept that called for it,
This tells me all I need to know.
- Ma'at
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Well, Anubis, I gotta say that those scores that you have for your character aren't much different from what Celtavian posted as what he desired for his character. I mean that in a "qualitative" way. Having a lower strength--fine; but you also have a much higher dexterity, and an 18 in charisma as well. Celtavian said that he could envision a female paladin with a 12 strength, but that's beside the point. As far as his stats "telling you all that you need to know" really says what? That he's a munchkin or a powergamer, or what, really?
To me, friend, it merely says that he has a different--and no less valid--expectation of what kind of stats work for his vision of what a paladin is to look like and be capable of. I might add that not being content with any stat below 10 or 12 for a paladin is not the same as demanding that all the stats be straight 18's. Expecting such stats to be higher, to some degree, is also not necessarily a "holdover" from 2nd Edition--it is simply a vision of a paladin character being blessed by the gods and gifted with a higher degree of natural ability than other characters or people.
Personally, Celtavian's stat expectations are quite in-line with making at least good use of all of the paladin's strength, but it certainly doesn't mean that such abilities are exploited to their pinnacle. I don't expect I would want to play a paladin character with less than the stats Celtavian mentioned--unless I had a particular vision that required such--because it doesn't permit me to play the paladin with the kind of abilities that I think a paladin should be capable of. If I had lower stats, I would most likely play a fighter instead. I tend to see paladins--like Celtavian--as specially blessed by the gods, picked and annointed from the masses of humanity, so that the gods may raise them up to fight the good fight and perform incredible, heroic, and valiant deeds that will inspire people for generations. To that end, I see the paladin typically having higher stats--most somewhere in the 12-14 range or higher, with none lower than 10. That sounds "above average" to me, and quite appropriate for heroic paladins.
Of course, you don't have to agree, but whether one expects paladin stats to be 12-14's or higher, or something quite different, doesn't mean that one is *better* and *lesser*. It just means that different people have different visions of what their different characters should look like and or be capable of.
As an aside, there are numerous Epic level feats and such that a character just can't qualify for with stats of less than 22 or 25 for example. Those kind of heroic stats aren't going to be gained and thus an epic character that is worth a damn isn't going to be playable if the character has stats of less than 12-14 or so. In fact, I'd guess that they would have to be significantly higher than that in order to be playable. Aside from special magic items, a character desiring to be an effective epic level character would be highly dismayed at the feats that they couldn't access; combat feats that require strength of 25; dex feats requiring dex's of 21, 22, or 25; con feats requiring con's of 22 or 25; leadership and charisma feats requiring charisma of 22 or 25; and so on. Unless the character is decked out like a christmas tree, then if the character has a 14 strength+5 for stat gains; +5 for a magic book;=24; still insufficient for the best epic combat feats.
That's just an example. If I wanted to play a heroic, plate armoured, greatsword-armed paladin who could kick ass and take names in the epic levels, it seems like a 16 strength would be a requirement. Again, it doesn't mean that *YOU* are wrong or inferior or stupid for being willing to play a paladin with a 12 strength--and in fact, are having fun with it. That's great, in fact. However, I would want a paladin to have a minimum of a 14 strength, and preferably higher. That's not because I can't or don't like to play complex characters, it's just because I don't prefer to play paladins that aren't strong, and capable of standing up in a hard fight. I don't like "weak" paladins. In my defininition, that's having a strength of less than 14. That goes back into how different people envision paladins though. I don't tend to see them as having many ordinary or mundane stat abilities. I tend to see them as having somewhat higher stats than average.
That's my view of paladins. Fighters and other characters can often be quite fine with far lesser stats. I can see a hardened fighter with an intelligence or even a dexterity of 8; or a charisma of 8, and a wisdom of 10. All of those quirks and fluctuations in stats can all fit a very good fighter, and many different visions thereof. Paladins, though, at least in my book, *should* be something higher on the scale than the average mercenary, ale-swilling barbarian, or grizzled, cigarette-smoking soldier.
Cheers!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well, Anubis, I gotta say that those scores that you have for your character aren't much different from what Celtavian posted as what he desired for his character. I mean that in a "qualitative" way. Having a lower strength--fine; but you also have a much higher dexterity, and an 18 in charisma as well. Celtavian said that he could envision a female paladin with a 12 strength, but that's beside the point. As far as his stats "telling you all that you need to know" really says what? That he's a munchkin or a powergamer, or what, really?
To me, friend, it merely says that he has a different--and no less valid--expectation of what kind of stats work for his vision of what a paladin is to look like and be capable of. I might add that not being content with any stat below 10 or 12 for a paladin is not the same as demanding that all the stats be straight 18's. Expecting such stats to be higher, to some degree, is also not necessarily a "holdover" from 2nd Edition--it is simply a vision of a paladin character being blessed by the gods and gifted with a higher degree of natural ability than other characters or people.
Personally, Celtavian's stat expectations are quite in-line with making at least good use of all of the paladin's strength, but it certainly doesn't mean that such abilities are exploited to their pinnacle. I don't expect I would want to play a paladin character with less than the stats Celtavian mentioned--unless I had a particular vision that required such--because it doesn't permit me to play the paladin with the kind of abilities that I think a paladin should be capable of. If I had lower stats, I would most likely play a fighter instead. I tend to see paladins--like Celtavian--as specially blessed by the gods, picked and annointed from the masses of humanity, so that the gods may raise them up to fight the good fight and perform incredible, heroic, and valiant deeds that will inspire people for generations. To that end, I see the paladin typically having higher stats--most somewhere in the 12-14 range or higher, with none lower than 10. That sounds "above average" to me, and quite appropriate for heroic paladins.
Of course, you don't have to agree, but whether one expects paladin stats to be 12-14's or higher, or something quite different, doesn't mean that one is *better* and *lesser*. It just means that different people have different visions of what their different characters should look like and or be capable of.
As an aside, there are numerous Epic level feats and such that a character just can't qualify for with stats of less than 22 or 25 for example. Those kind of heroic stats aren't going to be gained and thus an epic character that is worth a damn isn't going to be playable if the character has stats of less than 12-14 or so. In fact, I'd guess that they would have to be significantly higher than that in order to be playable. Aside from special magic items, a character desiring to be an effective epic level character would be highly dismayed at the feats that they couldn't access; combat feats that require strength of 25; dex feats requiring dex's of 21, 22, or 25; con feats requiring con's of 22 or 25; leadership and charisma feats requiring charisma of 22 or 25; and so on. Unless the character is decked out like a christmas tree, then if the character has a 14 strength+5 for stat gains; +5 for a magic book;=24; still insufficient for the best epic combat feats.
That's just an example. If I wanted to play a heroic, plate armoured, greatsword-armed paladin who could kick ass and take names in the epic levels, it seems like a 16 strength would be a requirement. Again, it doesn't mean that *YOU* are wrong or inferior or stupid for being willing to play a paladin with a 12 strength--and in fact, are having fun with it. That's great, in fact. However, I would want a paladin to have a minimum of a 14 strength, and preferably higher. That's not because I can't or don't like to play complex characters, it's just because I don't prefer to play paladins that aren't strong, and capable of standing up in a hard fight. I don't like "weak" paladins. In my defininition, that's having a strength of less than 14. That goes back into how different people envision paladins though. I don't tend to see them as having many ordinary or mundane stat abilities. I tend to see them as having somewhat higher stats than average.
That's my view of paladins. Fighters and other characters can often be quite fine with far lesser stats. I can see a hardened fighter with an intelligence or even a dexterity of 8; or a charisma of 8, and a wisdom of 10. All of those quirks and fluctuations in stats can all fit a very good fighter, and many different visions thereof. Paladins, though, at least in my book, *should* be something higher on the scale than the average mercenary, ale-swilling barbarian, or grizzled, cigarette-smoking soldier.
Cheers!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Endur
First Post
I'd prefer not to play a character with a below average stat.
I was stuck in a 28 point buy game and I had to pick between playing a fighter with a below average stat and playing a paladin with a below average stat. So I chose to play the Paladin.
My favorite character's stats at level 1:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14 (+2 racial modifier= 16)
Int 8
Wis 12
Chr 14 (-2 racial modifier = 12)
Wisdom was high enough that I could cast level 1 paladin spells.
Chr bonus of +1 for various paladin abilities.
con bonus for hit points to survive
str bonus for combat
dex bonus to qualify for the dodge feat and mithril heavy armor.
int, while nice, really wasn't on the list.
I was stuck in a 28 point buy game and I had to pick between playing a fighter with a below average stat and playing a paladin with a below average stat. So I chose to play the Paladin.
My favorite character's stats at level 1:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14 (+2 racial modifier= 16)
Int 8
Wis 12
Chr 14 (-2 racial modifier = 12)
Wisdom was high enough that I could cast level 1 paladin spells.
Chr bonus of +1 for various paladin abilities.
con bonus for hit points to survive
str bonus for combat
dex bonus to qualify for the dodge feat and mithril heavy armor.
int, while nice, really wasn't on the list.
Strange, I've always considered Point Buy where Paladins, Monks and Rogues pick up the most. Those are the classes that seem to gain the most from several moderate attributes.
Paladin with:
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 14
28 Point Buy if I did the math correctly. Raise attributes with level gains.
Depends on the campaign where I put the level gains.
Then again, one of the most fun Paladin's I've played started as a mercenary fighter (LN) who discovered his calling after being on the wrong side of a battle and being abandoned. He didn't leave his post even though the odds were hopeless. Of course, this was 3.0 where a single Hold Person could take care of such a stuborn individual without having to kill them. Clerics decided he was redeamable, and he eventually agreed with them. A few levels later, he was a Paladin for that church.
Hey, if evil can recruit Blackguards why can't good recruit fighters into being paladins?
Paladin with:
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 14
28 Point Buy if I did the math correctly. Raise attributes with level gains.
Depends on the campaign where I put the level gains.
Then again, one of the most fun Paladin's I've played started as a mercenary fighter (LN) who discovered his calling after being on the wrong side of a battle and being abandoned. He didn't leave his post even though the odds were hopeless. Of course, this was 3.0 where a single Hold Person could take care of such a stuborn individual without having to kill them. Clerics decided he was redeamable, and he eventually agreed with them. A few levels later, he was a Paladin for that church.
Hey, if evil can recruit Blackguards why can't good recruit fighters into being paladins?
Anubis the Doomseer
First Post
SHARK said:
Olive
Explorer
SHARK said:That's my view of paladins. Fighters and other characters can often be quite fine with far lesser stats. I can see a hardened fighter with an intelligence or even a dexterity of 8; or a charisma of 8, and a wisdom of 10. All of those quirks and fluctuations in stats can all fit a very good fighter, and many different visions thereof. Paladins, though, at least in my book, *should* be something higher on the scale than the average mercenary, ale-swilling barbarian, or grizzled, cigarette-smoking soldier.
But regardless of stats, they can be different. Any 8 INT Paladin isn't going to be automatically a average mercenary. You role play him as a paladin. He doesn't have to be the greatest analytical thinker in the world to have supreme faith and dedication to law and good.
re
I am not competing, but I have a definite sense of what I view as a Paladin. I am a huge fan of the Arthurian legends and I believe the knights of renknown in such legends such as Launcelot, Tristram de Lyoness, Percival, Galahad and the like were physically and mentally extraordinary amongst already extraordinary warriors.
They were not all necessarily Paladins. They were all extraordinary with no notable below average statistics.
The knights of Arthur's court are my primary archetype for any Paladin, not real life knights from the Medieval age since I don't believe they had Paladin powers, though I could be wrong.
You need to get out of the mindset that playing a character with lower statistics somehow makes you a better player. It doesn't.
I hope you realize that every character, Paladin or not, that I play in any campaign has a very well-developed personality and background. I spend alot of time on such aspects of my character, much more time than I spend generating stats.
As far as being a power gamer, some of us balance things a different way. I am not into magic items. I think characters should have a few unique, quality magic items that help them, but I don't think they should receive a storehouse of saleable magic items that they are constantly upgrading.
I prefer to have my character's start out with high stats that don't need alot of magical enhancement down the line to keep up with the monsters. I seriously prefer high stats over magic items. When I run the game, I tend to allow the player's to use a stat generation method that almost guarantees high stats including at least one 18.
I then scale back the magic items substantially because they don't need as many for survival considering they will be more likely to survive because of their stats. That is how I like to play the game. It is different than most maybe, but more fun for myself and the group I play with.
I think heroic characters should be above average stat wise, especially Paladins whose sole purpose for adventuring is to defeat evil in the service of their god. They exist only for that reason, not to spread the word (though they can and do), not to help the poor (though they can and do), and not to build churches (though they often will protect them). They are their god's mortal weapon against evil. They should be stronger than average, always. That is why they are chosen.
Anubis the Doomseer said:
I am not competing, but I have a definite sense of what I view as a Paladin. I am a huge fan of the Arthurian legends and I believe the knights of renknown in such legends such as Launcelot, Tristram de Lyoness, Percival, Galahad and the like were physically and mentally extraordinary amongst already extraordinary warriors.
They were not all necessarily Paladins. They were all extraordinary with no notable below average statistics.
The knights of Arthur's court are my primary archetype for any Paladin, not real life knights from the Medieval age since I don't believe they had Paladin powers, though I could be wrong.
You need to get out of the mindset that playing a character with lower statistics somehow makes you a better player. It doesn't.
I hope you realize that every character, Paladin or not, that I play in any campaign has a very well-developed personality and background. I spend alot of time on such aspects of my character, much more time than I spend generating stats.
As far as being a power gamer, some of us balance things a different way. I am not into magic items. I think characters should have a few unique, quality magic items that help them, but I don't think they should receive a storehouse of saleable magic items that they are constantly upgrading.
I prefer to have my character's start out with high stats that don't need alot of magical enhancement down the line to keep up with the monsters. I seriously prefer high stats over magic items. When I run the game, I tend to allow the player's to use a stat generation method that almost guarantees high stats including at least one 18.
I then scale back the magic items substantially because they don't need as many for survival considering they will be more likely to survive because of their stats. That is how I like to play the game. It is different than most maybe, but more fun for myself and the group I play with.
I think heroic characters should be above average stat wise, especially Paladins whose sole purpose for adventuring is to defeat evil in the service of their god. They exist only for that reason, not to spread the word (though they can and do), not to help the poor (though they can and do), and not to build churches (though they often will protect them). They are their god's mortal weapon against evil. They should be stronger than average, always. That is why they are chosen.
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