Is The Paladin Weak?
- Thread starter SHARK
- Start date
drnuncheon
Explorer
Re: Re: re
So, an adventurer has to be superior to "the common man" in every way? He has to be above average? I personally don't have a problem with low-CHA adventurers. An adventurer is, almost by definition, an outsider - someone who does not fit into the normal, accepted roles of society. Someone like that might well have a more difficult time dealing with people, whether that's the reason they became an outsider in the first place, or if they became that way after they took up an adventuring lifestyle. The low Cha could be anything from arrogance to a disdain for social rules and niceties.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" (thank you, China Mieville)
ANyway, back to the stats. The barbarian or the fighter doesn't need a high Int. The rogue probably doesn't need a strength bonus to do what he does - and the wizard certainly doesn't. But if you argue hard enough, you can convince yourself that you "need" those stats, even when you don't.
And as for needing high stats for the 'heroic' aspect - some of the most famous heroic adventurers of all (Mr. Baggins and Mr. Gamgee) were just "Joe Public". So obviously you don't need high stats to be a hero, just the right attitude.
I think you can play a paladin just fine with the default stat array: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 15 is plenty. He doesn't need a great Dex because he'll be encased in steel plate (which will make more than a 12 useless anyway). He's not dependant on skills so an Int of 10 is fine. Everything else he's got a bonus in. He doesn't need to be the strongest man alive - it's enough that he is strong, isn't it? And if you're playing with more than the 25-point stat buy, you can do even more..
J
but what do I know? We use 4d6 drop lowest.
reapersaurus said:
So, an adventurer has to be superior to "the common man" in every way? He has to be above average? I personally don't have a problem with low-CHA adventurers. An adventurer is, almost by definition, an outsider - someone who does not fit into the normal, accepted roles of society. Someone like that might well have a more difficult time dealing with people, whether that's the reason they became an outsider in the first place, or if they became that way after they took up an adventuring lifestyle. The low Cha could be anything from arrogance to a disdain for social rules and niceties.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" (thank you, China Mieville)
ANyway, back to the stats. The barbarian or the fighter doesn't need a high Int. The rogue probably doesn't need a strength bonus to do what he does - and the wizard certainly doesn't. But if you argue hard enough, you can convince yourself that you "need" those stats, even when you don't.
And as for needing high stats for the 'heroic' aspect - some of the most famous heroic adventurers of all (Mr. Baggins and Mr. Gamgee) were just "Joe Public". So obviously you don't need high stats to be a hero, just the right attitude.
I think you can play a paladin just fine with the default stat array: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 15 is plenty. He doesn't need a great Dex because he'll be encased in steel plate (which will make more than a 12 useless anyway). He's not dependant on skills so an Int of 10 is fine. Everything else he's got a bonus in. He doesn't need to be the strongest man alive - it's enough that he is strong, isn't it? And if you're playing with more than the 25-point stat buy, you can do even more..
J
but what do I know? We use 4d6 drop lowest.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Hey there S'mon! Yeah, I have developed some serious prestige classes in my campaigns--The Knights of the Wolf, The Knights of the Radiant Dawn, The Knights of the Black Dragon, The Knights of the Shimmering Oak, among others. Most are excellent prestige classes for Paladins and Lawful Good Fighters. I haven't changed the Paladin core class in my campaign, because I'm something of a servant of law, order, and completeness,
so while it isn't like I'm totally incapable of changing it, though it makes me loathe to do so. I feel more comfortable in making up prestige classes that can fill in the blanks so to speak, so that a 10th level Paladin can take 10 levels in say, Knight of the Wolf, and all along the way, from 11th through 20th level, he can look forward to gaining impressive abilities that suit his actual "role" and "vision" of a holy, mighty, divine champion. I have seen these used with some success, though straight Paladins are also popular, and it isn't like the core Paladin is entirely powerless, per se, because they clearly are not, you know? They do have some power, but if the road gets really rough, some hard-charging Fighters and Barbarians can often times make the Paladin into really a second-string warrior, as you can see problems which the core Paladin presents.
I mean, in some ways, the holy, divine champion, as far as raw *real* power, and braod abilities to actually do many different things and accomplish different challenges, as well as fully inhabit the role of a holy, divine champion, doesn't seem to fully work itself out until the character looks something like this, with a long, epic career worked out:
10th level Fighter/20th level Paladin/10th level Celestial Paragon;
or
10th level Fighter/20th level Paladin;
or
20th level Fighter/20th level Paladin;
or
10th level Fighter/20th level Paladin/10th level Cleric;
as one can see, examining these class combinations against each other, and most tellingly against a straight 30th or 40th level Paladin, the character class's faults and weaknesses are not overcome even with epic levels. The Paladin needs to be supplemented with something else in order to bring it up to a more heroic, mighty ideal. In looking at the various configurations, a straight Paladin seems quite underwhelming, you know? However, it seems that by throwing in a different class or two, like Fighter, Cleric, or Celestial Paragon, the character is able to recoup from most of the Paladin classes failures and actually begin to resemble the mighty vision of a holy champion.
I actually happen to really like the Paladin as a concept, as an ideal, and I even have a passion for the core Paladin class--however, I do think that it is missing the extra bit of rugged toughness and hammering power that the class needs to really live up to the vision and role of the holy champion that the Paladin classically represents.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey there S'mon! Yeah, I have developed some serious prestige classes in my campaigns--The Knights of the Wolf, The Knights of the Radiant Dawn, The Knights of the Black Dragon, The Knights of the Shimmering Oak, among others. Most are excellent prestige classes for Paladins and Lawful Good Fighters. I haven't changed the Paladin core class in my campaign, because I'm something of a servant of law, order, and completeness,
so while it isn't like I'm totally incapable of changing it, though it makes me loathe to do so. I feel more comfortable in making up prestige classes that can fill in the blanks so to speak, so that a 10th level Paladin can take 10 levels in say, Knight of the Wolf, and all along the way, from 11th through 20th level, he can look forward to gaining impressive abilities that suit his actual "role" and "vision" of a holy, mighty, divine champion. I have seen these used with some success, though straight Paladins are also popular, and it isn't like the core Paladin is entirely powerless, per se, because they clearly are not, you know? They do have some power, but if the road gets really rough, some hard-charging Fighters and Barbarians can often times make the Paladin into really a second-string warrior, as you can see problems which the core Paladin presents.I mean, in some ways, the holy, divine champion, as far as raw *real* power, and braod abilities to actually do many different things and accomplish different challenges, as well as fully inhabit the role of a holy, divine champion, doesn't seem to fully work itself out until the character looks something like this, with a long, epic career worked out:
10th level Fighter/20th level Paladin/10th level Celestial Paragon;
or
10th level Fighter/20th level Paladin;
or
20th level Fighter/20th level Paladin;
or
10th level Fighter/20th level Paladin/10th level Cleric;
as one can see, examining these class combinations against each other, and most tellingly against a straight 30th or 40th level Paladin, the character class's faults and weaknesses are not overcome even with epic levels. The Paladin needs to be supplemented with something else in order to bring it up to a more heroic, mighty ideal. In looking at the various configurations, a straight Paladin seems quite underwhelming, you know? However, it seems that by throwing in a different class or two, like Fighter, Cleric, or Celestial Paragon, the character is able to recoup from most of the Paladin classes failures and actually begin to resemble the mighty vision of a holy champion.
I actually happen to really like the Paladin as a concept, as an ideal, and I even have a passion for the core Paladin class--however, I do think that it is missing the extra bit of rugged toughness and hammering power that the class needs to really live up to the vision and role of the holy champion that the Paladin classically represents.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Re: Re: Re: re
Generous stat generation methods are a good way to subtly assist paladins and monks.
I have twice hand a GM tell me to roll 5d6 and drop the lowest two seven times and keep the best six. This is actually not a huge advantage for fighters, since they have a couple of dump stats. But it can given you an absolutely kick-arse paladin, with all the AC you can use, good BAB, great saves, efective lay on hands, plenty of diplomacy, healing, ride, knowledge (religion), and profession (herbalism), a complete range of paladin spells, and acceptable hit points.
Regards,
Agback
drnuncheon said:
Generous stat generation methods are a good way to subtly assist paladins and monks.
I have twice hand a GM tell me to roll 5d6 and drop the lowest two seven times and keep the best six. This is actually not a huge advantage for fighters, since they have a couple of dump stats. But it can given you an absolutely kick-arse paladin, with all the AC you can use, good BAB, great saves, efective lay on hands, plenty of diplomacy, healing, ride, knowledge (religion), and profession (herbalism), a complete range of paladin spells, and acceptable hit points.
Regards,
Agback
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