Is the Psion class balanced?

[Scion]

When compared to a sorcerer a psion knows fewer. The trade off is that he can generally make the ones he knows more powerful via augmentation.

And once you get past the first few levels the sorc can cast a much higher payload over the course of the day as well

 

[KarinsDad]

One has to look at the system as a whole and how interactions work. Taking things too far out of context can make anything look strange.

Yes, this is true.

If you look at the system as a whole, core spell casting classes have real significant limitation problems with grapples and paralyzation. Psions have minor issues with them.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core race can boost his saves by 4 without casting a spell (and even then the save boost tends to be +1 to +3 until real high level). Elans can.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core race can stop all damage from an attack, regardless of the attack type. Elans can.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core spell casting class can punch through Spell Resistance at +8 with two feats (assuming the default magic = psionic campaign). Psions can.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core feat can add 2D6 damage to a weapon without giving up something major in return (like Power Attack, e.g. -7 to hit for an entire round to get +7 damage as opposed to using up a focus that can often be reacquired either that round or the next round). A psionic feat can.

If you look at the system as a whole, no two core feats can add 4D6 damage to a weapon without giving up something major in return. Two psionic feats can.

If you look at the system as a whole, damaging spells have damage caps. Damaging Psionic powers do not.

The list goes on and on and on.

It is not a matter that they are different. It is a matter of the "bigger, better, badder" syndrome. You see that in the Complete books as well, just not to this extent.

 

[Scion]

If you look at the system as a whole, core spell casting classes have real significant limitation problems with grapples and paralyzation. Psions have minor issues with them.

I am guessing that you mean basically the wizard and sorc, but even they can use polymorph to assume the shape of something to make it much less of a hassle. Whether by being too large to grapple effectively or with such a good bonus to grapple checks that it doesnt matter.

But then I think that the polymorph effects break the game with most of the uses they are good for.. too short of a duration for a lot of the utility work that it could be for, too big of combat boosts that hurt the rest of the system. Isnt that nice.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core race can boost his saves by 4 without casting a spell (and even then the save boost tends to be +1 to +3 until real high level). Elans can.

Hello mr strawman.

Lets see. The elan needs to use 1 pp (so it is like using a 'spell') and it takes an immediate action (uh oh, it takes an action as well) plus you have to be aware of it and not want to use another racial ability.

Burning class abilities to fuel racial abilities is a neat gimick, but I would 'much' rather have the 'always on' save boosts such as the halflings or the dwarves.

+1 all of the time with no action cost and no further payments even when you arent paying attention vs +4 with a host of costs (at low levels the 1pp is huge, at high levels the action is an incredible detriment).

Personally, I'd rather have the +1. It is more reliable and doesnt hurt me in other ways.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core race can stop all damage from an attack, regardless of the attack type. Elans can.

Lets see, damage dealing attack. Usually these have attack rolls. Mr halfling likely has a +2 to his AC vs this sort of attack. About 10% of the time he simply ignores the attack with no further cost to himself.

The elans ability 'looks' more impressive, but the more subtle abilities can be just as powerful although they are harder to notice sometimes.

Plus, it again costs an action, it again costs pp (in this case likely a lot), and you have to be aware of it and able to react.

So it only works once per round, at the very most. The halflings ability can work under any number of attacks per round, unbounded even.

Not to mention that the elan has a no ability bonuses but still has an ability penalty.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core spell casting class can punch through Spell Resistance at +8 with two feats (assuming the default magic = psionic campaign). Psions can.

Ahh.. the infamous power penetration.

Tell me, which would you rather have after spending two feats?

+4 vs SR/PR on every spell you cast, all of the time

or

+8 vs SR/PR when you expend focus on a power and it will likely only happen 1/battle at best unless you spend yet another feat and more actions

Note that when you expend focus to do this you cant expend it to do other things.. such as use metapsionics, or power focus (for extra dc boost), or use any of your other psionic feats (some require holding it, but you no longer have it..many require expending it, but you are expending it for something else).

So usually you will only use it when you know that the opponent has SR/PR that you must get through.. but it cuts into the powers effectiveness in other ways.

The caster types dont even think about it. All of theirs are already buffed.

Sure, the bonus isnt as high, but the opportunity cost is nonexistant beyond the two feats.. the psions have a massive choice each and every time, and much of the time those two feats will simply be wasted because of wanting to use the focus for something else.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core feat can add 2D6 damage to a weapon without giving up something major in return

Focus?

Apparently you simply have no idea how much of an issue focus is.

I would suggest you play a psion for awhile.. I know you 'said' that you did before.. but it is very apparent that it simply wasnt true. Otherwise you would know the pain that is focus.

But even failing that why cant different classes have different abilities?

And even failing that anyone can get this feat and use it. So it isnt like it is limited in that scope.

And beyond all of that one could even point to various core feats which have effects that are just as good, if not better, especially after considering the 'focus' issue.

Weapon focus could be said to add 5% to your average damage on a swing. It helps to confirm crits. It is easily available. It is core. With it you gain a constant boost to damage, although it is smaller, but it doesnt require expending more resources each time to use.

(like Power Attack, e.g. -7 to hit for an entire round to get +7 damage as opposed to using up a focus that can often be reacquired either that round or the next round). A psionic feat can.

Of course power attack works in a very different way and with a different goal.. and can be -7 to hit for +14 to damage (or even higher with various prcs) and the damage multiplies on a crit and you dont have to spend another feat and an action (which typically prevents full round actions) and make a skill check in order to use it again.

If you look at the system as a whole, damaging spells have damage caps. Damaging Psionic powers do not.

Actually, spells have a cap that is higher than where they start generally.

Powers start at their cap. A 7 point energy ball (because it is 4th level) does 7d6 + some modifier no matter if you are 7th level or 500th level.

A 5 point fireball (pp equivalency of a 3rd level spell) does 5d6 if you are 5th level and 10d6 if you are 10th level or higher.

With powers you may expend further resources in order to make the actual damage go up, but then you are paying more for it.

A 9 point energy ball (equivalent to a 5th level spell/power) does 9d6 + some modifier.
A Cone of cold starts at 9d6 but can go up to 15d6 at 15th level and higher.
An empowered fireball starts at 13d6 and goes up to 15d6 at level 10.

So, powers 'start' at their cap. They do not scale. But one may dump extra resources into them to make them more powerful, but then they are no longer equivalent to the same power level that they were before.

The list goes on and on and on.

Yes it does, the 'balance' goes on and on.

there are tradeoffs, but as I have just shown people who claim imbalance are usually ignoring large parts of the system.

Many apparently simply do not realize how big of a balancing factor the focus is. It is huge! It impacts everything at all levels.

Other caster types do not have a worry such as this, they just go merily along their way.

It is not a matter that they are different. It is a matter of the "bigger, better, badder" syndrome. You see that in the Complete books as well, just not to this extent.

The complete books have things that are so broken it isnt even funny while the psionics have some things people have issues with when they dont look at it properly.

There is no 'bigger, better, badder' syndrome in the psionics book, much of it is actually on the weak side.. you simply focus on the things which are actually decent, claim they are overpowered because you ignore the drawbacks, and then say the whole system is bad.

Poor form.

You have said that you played a psion. I simply cannot understand how focus was ignored in your group. Every psion I have played been heavily motivated by what takes focus and what does not.

It is such a huge cost and a huge factor that to ignore it simply spells doom to balance discussions.

Much if we ignored the 'spells known' of a sorc and let him have access to the entire spell list, maybe even gave him all cleric spells as well. Sure it'll be imbalanced.. but we are only ignoring a little thing right?

 

[Jackelope King]

Echoing Scion for a moment (I hope he doesn't mind)...

If you look at the system as a whole, core spell casting classes have real significant limitation problems with grapples and paralyzation. Psions have minor issues with them.

If you look at the system as a whole, core spell casting classes are in serious trouble if they get grappled thanks to their low hit die and poor armor options. Divine casters (especially druids) do not suffer these problems. Also note that since psions have a greater percentage of close-range powers, they expose themselves to such danger more often.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core race can boost his saves by 4 without casting a spell (and even then the save boost tends to be +1 to +3 until real high level). Elans can.

If you look at the system as a whole, using a class feature which directly drains you primary class ability when you already suffer from poor stamina is a poor idea, especially when your primary class feature can cover this much better. Save-boosting powers are ALWAYS better options than the elan racial ability, and many of them ARE available as immediate actions.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core race can stop all damage from an attack, regardless of the attack type. Elans can.

Using a class feature which directly drains you primary class ability when you already suffer from poor stamina is a poor idea, especially when your primary class feature can cover this much better. Vigor is ALWAYS a better option than the elan racial ability.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core spell casting class can punch through Spell Resistance at +8 with two feats (assuming the default magic = psionic campaign). Psions can.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core spell casting class has to expend actions to punch through spell resistance at +4 with two feats (assuming the default magic = psionic campaign). Psions have to. Also note that by the rules as written, you must activate and expend two psionic foci in order to activate both power penetration and greater power penetration, which means that getting that +8 bonus requires at minimum 4 feats (both the penetration feats and either psicrystal affinity/psicrystal containment or psychic meditation/expanded knowledge [hustle]).

If you look at the system as a whole, no core feat can add 2D6 damage to a weapon without giving up something major in return (like Power Attack, e.g. -7 to hit for an entire round to get +7 damage as opposed to using up a focus that can often be reacquired either that round or the next round). A psionic feat can.

Actions are resources to be spent like any other. If you fail to realize this, you'll fail to understand psionics.

If you look at the system as a whole, no two core feats can add 4D6 damage to a weapon without giving up something major in return. Two psionic feats can.

Actions are resources to be spent like any other. If you fail to realize this, you'll fail to understand psionics.

If you look at the system as a whole, damaging spells have damage caps. Damaging Psionic powers do not.

If you look at the system as a whole, damaging spells automatically scale, giving the caster something for nothing and allowing them to expend fewer resources to gain the same effect. Psionic powers do not enjoy this benefit.

The list goes on and on and on.

Absolutely. We could create a similar list of arcane and divine problems which make these pale in comparison

 

[Nail]

If you look at the system as a whole, core spell casting classes are in serious trouble if they get grappled thanks to their low hit die and poor armor options. Divine casters (especially druids) do not suffer these problems.

Ha!

Tell that to the Clr stuck in EBT. Or swallowed whole. Or......

 

[Scion]

Echoing Scion for a moment (I hope he doesn't mind)...

Nah but I want to make sure to emphasis and correct a couple of things, hope you dont mind too much..

Also note that since psions have a greater percentage of close-range powers, they expose themselves to such danger more often.

I had forgotten about this point, but it is true!

If you look at the system as a whole, using a class feature which directly drains you primary class ability when you already suffer from poor stamina is a poor idea

Definately ;/

Vigor is ALWAYS a better option than the elan racial ability.

I dont agree with this really. Vigor is much more efficient, but it has a short duration so it falls under the category of 'combat buff'. The elan ability is 'uh oh!'.

Although at higher levels with quicken vigor becomes better essentially all of the time again

Also note that by the rules as written, you must activate and expend two psionic foci in order to activate both power penetration and greater power penetration, which means that getting that +8 bonus requires at minimum 4 feats (both the penetration feats and either psicrystal affinity/psicrystal containment or psychic meditation/expanded knowledge [hustle]).

This was corrected in the errata Thankfully!

Absolutely. We could create a similar list of arcane and divine problems which make these pale in comparison

But of course that list wouldnt be fair because arcane and divine are too cool for school

 

[Scion]

Tell that to the Clr stuck in EBT. Or swallowed whole. Or......

Werent we told in either this thread or the other that EBT isnt a big deal and hardly ever inconviniences anyone for more than a round or two at best?

Make up your mind guys!

 

[Jackelope King]

This was corrected in the errata Thankfully!

Ah. I stand corrected then. No access to errata from a lab computer, unfortunately. Thankya kindly for pointing that out to me.

 

[KarinsDad]

And once you get past the first few levels the sorc can cast a much higher payload over the course of the day as well

Course, you have to survive those first few levels to accomplish this.


Plus, this is misleading. Even at high level, a Sorcerer mostly casts his high level spells.

For example, a 20th level Sorcerer. At that level, his real bread and butter spells are 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. Sure, he'll cast some of his lower level spells during the day, but he won't cast most of them. On a real tough day, he'll cast most of his 7th through 9th level spells.

The 20th level Sorcerer has 8 7th, 8 8th, and 7 9th level spells he can cast (assuming a fairly maxxed out 34 Cha). And this includes all of his major metamagic as well.

25 spells. If you equate this to psionic PP, that's 8 * 17 + 8 * 15 + 7 * 13 = 343 PP

The 20th level straight Psion has 383 (19 Int) to 463 PP (34 Int) at that level. So, he can manifest 22 to 27 17 PP powers. Or, he could boost them even to 20 PP powers and do 19 to 23 of those.

The Sorcerer is lmited to 18 (19 Cha) to 25 (34 Cha) of his highest level spells, depending on stat.

From a "what actually happens during a game day" point of view, the high level Sorcerer has a lot of dinky low level spells that are not that useful because they have DC limits and damage caps and other limitations. He has to metamagic them (using up a higher level slot) in order to overcome these limitations.

Almost all of the Psion's lower level powers are still useful.


In actual gameplay, the Psion, even at high level, has a larger payload than the Sorcerer most days. A 20th level Sorcerer with only a few or none of his highest level spells and most of his lowest level spells still not cast in the day is in trouble. A 20th level Psion with 50 PP left is also in trouble, but nowhere near as big of trouble. He can still fire off a 20 PP power if necessary.

And, this does not even take into account the differences between a Psion and a Wizard where the differences are even greater.

The fact remains that the Psion can do high PP powers as often or more often in most actual gameplay than the Sorcerer can do high level spells. This also scales at many lower levels, although even level Sorcerers tend to even out with the Psion due to the big boost they receive in spells on even levels. Odd level Psions tend to be better (e.g. at 9th level with 24 stats, the psion has 103 PP and the Sorcerer has 76 PP worth of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells, at 10th level, 123 PP vs. 125 PP).

 

[helium3]

Actually, one slot is not always enough. The Psion in our group failed her Concentration roll yesterday and took 2 rounds to get out.

Sucks for the Psion. I'm still not sure why my party did so poorly against the EBT. I think maybe they all had relatively average to above average strengths. I think the problem was that EBT has you add Caster Level to + 8 to the grapple check. When you're dealing with 15th or 16th level caster, that means the grapple check is minimum 25.

In our campaigns, it's not that it is too difficult. It's that the group tends to splinter before we get there if we start at first or second level. In the past few years, we've had a lot of turnover with people going to Iraq, people moving to another state, couples splitting up, one person even died.

Our group was pretty stable. We lost a bunch of people in the final year, but I think that was because to the orignal core group finally started splintering. There was a nasty break-up and two of us moved to other parts of the country for different reasons. But yeah, I guess I've been really lucky in that sense. I've never had a problem finding quality people to game with, and keeping them around. And believe me, going from 1st to 15th level is awesome.