Is the Psion class balanced?

[Scion]

Course, you have to survive those first few levels to accomplish this.

Low levels are pretty deadly for most everyone..especially the low hd classes.

But during those low levels the sorc has other advantages anyway.

For example, a 20th level Sorcerer. At that level, his real bread and butter spells are 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. Sure, he'll cast some of his lower level spells during the day, but he won't cast most of them. On a real tough day, he'll cast most of his 7th through 9th level spells.

You mean he'll cast those higher level ones while in combat and throw his lower level ones around freely outside of combat whenever they are needed.

Buffs and utility spells and whatever else fall to the lower levels but then there are also lower level combat spells which work even though they are lower level.. like waves of fatigue and enervation (both are very, very mean.. an empowered enervation in a 6th level slot can single handidly spell the end an encounter if you roll well)

Sure, if you ignore the existance of lower level stuff the sorc might look a little bad in that light, but then you are ignoring a large part of the system again and so any conclusions drawn will be too narrow in focus to be worthwhile.

And, this does not even take into account the differences between a Psion and a Wizard where the differences are even greater.

The wizard has ultimate flexability in spell knowledge. You seem to be ignoring this. Any situation that comes up he should have an answer for. He can literally have hundreds of choices with ease, and up into thousands with some work.

Psions are specialists by nature anyway.. comparing to a specialist wizard is more appropriate in some ways..and the specialist wizard has more total spellcasting power in a day than the psion.

 

[helium3]

Plus, this is misleading. Even at high level, a Sorcerer mostly casts his high level spells.

I completely disagree with this statement. I've watched a character play the same sorcerer from 1st to 15th level and the low level spells were still being used all the time at 15th level. Granted, our combats generally were really nasty slug-fests at that level with one or two high CR monsters and a smattering of lower CR monsters. In a fight against a very old dragon you're correct that magic missle isn't such a hot spell. But, if you're routinely going up against very old dragons and blasting through them, as someone pointed out earlier, your DM is really doing you a disservice. Magic Missle is still pretty durned effective against a number of high CR monsters as long as you can get through the spell resistance. Sometimes, you have to beat the opponent by wearing them down, not blasting them twice with an uber-spell.

So no, you can't pretend that the lower level spells don't exist because it's just not true.

One thing I've noticed about the ENWorld board is that a lot of posters seem to think that damage output per round is supposed to scale exponentially or something. Like, if you're not doing 12d6 points of damage per round you're doing something wrong. Granted, there are some combat situations where that does happen, but it's certainly not the norm from my experience.

what actually happens during a game day" point of view, the high level Sorcerer has a lot of dinky low level spells that are not that useful because they have DC limits and damage caps and other limitations. He has to metamagic them (using up a higher level slot) in order to overcome these limitations . . . . Almost all of the Psion's lower level powers are still useful . . . . In actual gameplay, the Psion, even at high level, has a larger payload than the Sorcerer most days. A 20th level Sorcerer with only a few or none of his highest level spells and most of his lowest level spells still not cast in the day is in trouble. A 20th level Psion with 50 PP left is also in trouble, but nowhere near as big of trouble. He can still fire off a 20 PP power if necessary . . . And, this does not even take into account the differences between a Psion and a Wizard where the differences are even greater . . . The fact remains that the Psion can do high PP powers as often or more often in most actual gameplay than the Sorcerer can do high level spells. This also scales at many lower levels, although even level Sorcerers tend to even out with the Psion due to the big boost they receive in spells on even levels. Odd level Psions tend to be better (e.g. at 9th level with 24 stats, the psion has 103 PP and the Sorcerer has 76 PP worth of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells, at 10th level, 123 PP vs. 125 PP).

I'm not sure how many times I need to say this, but the reason that a Psion has less oomph than a Sorcerer is because they have more flexibility. If you think there shouldn't be compensation for loss of flexibility, then you have a fundamental problem with the entire 3.5 game system, not just Psions.

I think you are overly trivializing the abilities of a Sorcerer when you only consider the use of spells that do damage and conclude that low level spells are "useless" because they can't blast as much as high level spells. There are a lot of things that lower level spells can do besides blasting people, not to mention that some of the lower level offensive spells are STILL USEFUL at higher levels. Yes, a Psion has a wider range of possible effects than a Sorcerer, which is why a Sorcerer has a greater level of total power.

Again, if you think it's unfair that Psions have more "oomph" than a Wizard, then you must also conclude that it's unfair that Sorcerers have more "oomph" than a Wizard. Unless of course you're making the argument that Psions are as flexible as Wizards???

 

[helium3]

I'm going to stop posting in this thread. This is starting to feel like a hamster wheel.

 

[Scion]

I'm going to stop posting in this thread. This is starting to feel like a hamster wheel.

Dont worry, the wheel rolls around as a new thread every now and then

 

[Nail]

But yeah, I guess I've been really lucky in that sense. I've never had a problem finding quality people to game with, and keeping them around. And believe me, going from 1st to 15th level is awesome.

You are lucky!

I, too, have been able to stay with my current gaming group for a few years....enough to get from Clr 4 to Clr 19. I sincerely hope we can play into the 20's.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you look at the system as a whole, core spell casting classes are in serious trouble if they get grappled thanks to their low hit die and poor armor options. Divine casters (especially druids) do not suffer these problems. Also note that since psions have a greater percentage of close-range powers, they expose themselves to such danger more often.

You missed the most important part that spell casters cannot cast most of their spells when grappled. Cannot. They might be able to cast their verbal only spells.

The low hit die and poor armor options are only relevant to the "get in and out" part of grapple. Once in, they are in more trouble than Psions.

Psions might be able to manifest ANY of their powers.

If you look at the system as a whole, using a class feature which directly drains you primary class ability when you already suffer from poor stamina is a poor idea, especially when your primary class feature can cover this much better. Save-boosting powers are ALWAYS better options than the elan racial ability, and many of them ARE available as immediate actions.

Using a class feature which directly drains you primary class ability when you already suffer from poor stamina is a poor idea, especially when your primary class feature can cover this much better. Vigor is ALWAYS a better option than the elan racial ability.

It's equivalent to casting an instantaneous Quicken spell, even at 1st through 6th level, even though same level spell casters cannot do that at all and higher level casters do not get that cool of spells to do until much later.

Stop most or all damage is huge.

Sure, you have to use PP. The fact is, you CAN. You have the option. Core races do not have the option to stop all damage by sacrificing a spell.

If you look at the system as a whole, no core spell casting class has to expend actions to punch through spell resistance at +4 with two feats (assuming the default magic = psionic campaign). Psions have to. Also note that by the rules as written, you must activate and expend two psionic foci in order to activate both power penetration and greater power penetration, which means that getting that +8 bonus requires at minimum 4 feats (both the penetration feats and either psicrystal affinity/psicrystal containment or psychic meditation/expanded knowledge [hustle]).

As pointed out, the Errata handles this.

Actions are resources to be spent like any other. If you fail to realize this, you'll fail to understand psionics.

Actions are resources. But, they are a renewable resource.

The immediate action "actions are resources" argument is so weak it is almost non-existent. Sure, an Elan using Resilience is using up an immediate action. For a HUGE gain. Big whoop. Most characters do not have the opportunity to use immediate actions at all. The Psionics book practically added the entire (broken) immediate action concept to the game because core classes couldn't do this wonderful thing.

And, using up a full round action at low level does prevent the psion from doing OTHER boosts. They got some mega-advantage like +4 to Spell Resistance and then have to get the Focus back? They can no longer run up a wall and get behind an opponent, even though no other core class can do that at all. They can still fight. They can still manifest powers.

And, since Psions get bonus feats, it's not a major effort to get Psionic Meditation or to have your Psi-crystal to hold onto a bonus focus.

Sure, they have to give up an action to get the focus back. But, they get big advantages with that minor temporary disadvantage.

If you look at the system as a whole, damaging spells automatically scale, giving the caster something for nothing and allowing them to expend fewer resources to gain the same effect. Psionic powers do not enjoy this benefit.

Yes. They do scale. They scale for about 5 or 6 levels at the most and then stop.

Course, the DC on the core spells does not scale.

Course, the Psion can boost the damage past the 5 or 6 level limit AND his DC scales when he boosts most powers.

Course, the Psion can choose a damaging energy power which his opponent is not as resistent to (such as Energy Resistance or good/bad save categories or no Reflex save, no Improved Evasion).

Course, Fire and Cold add an extra point of damage per PP.

Course, psionic characters can boost beyond their manifester level.

Your argument here is lacking. The Psions get a lot more advantages here than the 5 or 6 level auto-scale.

Absolutely. We could create a similar list of arcane and divine problems which make these pale in comparison

Typically only once you get to the Complete books. Core has very few of these. Feel free to name them.

 

[Scion]

Let me see if I can sum this up quickly:

Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.

Things from different books other than the core will likely have different abilities than soley what is in the core. No, this does not make them inherantly imbalanced. Yes, you do have to look at the associated costs.

Actions are very important in balance.

Focus is very important in balance.

Again, some classes are better at some things than others. If you do everything worse than everyone else then likely it is a poorly balanced class. Being better at something than someone else does not mean it is broken.


I guess that covers it in broad terms. Ignoring simple balance points (such as actions and limited resources) is going to make looking at the more complex balance points impossible.

 

[Jackelope King]

You missed the most important part that spell casters cannot cast most of their spells when grappled. Cannot. They might be able to cast their verbal only spells.

The low hit die and poor armor options are only relevant to the "get in and out" part of grapple. Once in, they are in more trouble than Psions.

Psions might be able to manifest ANY of their powers.

Until they cast dimension door and cast whatever they want. Or they use a stilled spell.

It's equivalent to casting an instantaneous Quicken spell, even at 1st through 6th level, even though same level spell casters cannot do that at all and higher level casters do not get that cool of spells to do until much later.

Stop most or all damage is huge.

Sure, you have to use PP. The fact is, you CAN. You have the option. Core races do not have the option to stop all damage by sacrificing a spell.

You also have the option of spending power points to shoot crystal shards at tin cans on a fence rather than your opponents.

Actions are resources. But, they are a renewable resource.

The immediate action "actions are resources" argument is so weak it is almost non-existent. Sure, an Elan using Resilience is using up an immediate action. For a HUGE gain. Big whoop. Most characters do not have the opportunity to use immediate actions at all. The Psionics book practically added the entire (broken) immediate action concept to the game because core classes couldn't do this wonderful thing.

And, using up a full round action at low level does prevent the psion from doing OTHER boosts. They got some mega-advantage like +4 to Spell Resistance and then have to get the Focus back? They can no longer run up a wall and get behind an opponent, even though no other core class can do that at all. They can still fight. They can still manifest powers.

And, since Psions get bonus feats, it's not a major effort to get Psionic Meditation or to have your Psi-crystal to hold onto a bonus focus.

Sure, they have to give up an action to get the focus back. But, they get big advantages with that minor temporary disadvantage.

First I'd like to point out that you're handwaving away a psion drawback by saying that they can fix it with feats while completely ignoring the fact that arcane casters can do the same with still spell.

That said, actions are the fundamental resource unit in the game. If I do not have sufficient actions to put out a plan, then nothing else matters. You seem to think that when a psionic character expends psionic focus, then this is a minor cost. It isn't. It costs actions to regain that focus which could be better used closing with / fleeing from the enemy, or blowing enemies up, or maintaining other feats. If you don't have the actions available to you, the you can't do anything, and psonic focus consumes those actions. If you are unwilling to admit this, I'm not sure that this could really go anywhere. It'd be like claiming that you can ignore yellow lights while driving since they don't stay yellow for very long.

Yes. They do scale. They scale for about 5 or 6 levels at the most and then stop.

Course, the DC on the core spells does not scale.

Until you take highten spell, or use the next spell up in line which you got because you know so many spells, or you use an entirely different spell because it fits the situation better because you know so many spells, or...

Course, the Psion can boost the damage past the 5 or 6 level limit AND his DC scales when he boosts most powers.

And the psion pays for it while the arcane casters do not.

Course, the Psion can choose a damaging energy power which his opponent is not as resistent to (such as Energy Resistance or good/bad save categories or no Reflex save, no Improved Evasion).

Course, the psion has to know what the target's attributes are.

Course, arcanists can do this too with a feat.

Course, all this does it make elemental damage viable at high levels.

Course, Fire and Cold add an extra point of damage per PP.

Course, these are the two most likely energy types to be resisted.

Course, psionic characters can boost beyond their manifester level.

Course, this costs the character hit points or it costs them a poorly-scaling drain on power points.

Your argument here is lacking. The Psions get a lot more advantages here than the 5 or 6 level auto-scale.

I think it looks like yours is lacking, since you are intentionally ignoring the many other tradeoffs I've listed above.

Typically only once you get to the Complete books. Core has very few of these. Feel free to name them.

With pleasure. Here's the ones that occur to me right off the bat. I'm sure other folks can come up with nothing.

FLAT-OUT BROKEN ARCANE SPELLS
Gate- Two Words: Solar Cascade. Game. Set. Match. Psions do not gain the ability to ever summon anything, which bars them from more powerful summons and the game-ending brokenness that is Gate.
Disjunction- The verbal component for this spell should be "buh-bye". It just kills magic items. No equivalent in psionics.
Polymorph any Object- Turn your fighter into a firbolg permanently! Turn a mouse skeleton into a dragon skeleton, then raise it to be your new undead buddy! Do whatever the hell you want! We don't care anymore!
True Stirke- +20 insight bonus to an attack. Busts the hell out of power attack and is busted as hell when used in a magic item.

QUESTIONABLE ARCANE SPELLS
Magic Missile- gives arcanists a "sure thing" at low levels when psions have to rely on their ability to hit the enemy or their save DCs.
Scorching Ray- Without metamagic it’s comparable to psionic damage at low to mid levels. With metamagic it runs roughshod up until around level 13-ish. Up until the Apocalypse Loophole, scorching ray was the spell of choice for the biggest damage hound in the game: the Artificer. This spell was only supplanted in effectiveness when someone metamagicked the hell out of a near-epic level vile spell.
Protection from _____/Magic Circle Against ______- psionic characters have absolutely no way of dealing with alignment.
Wind Wall- the anti-ranged attacker spell... psionic characters have no such equivalent.
Scry- The psionic equivalent costs XP every time you use it
Shapechange- the psionic equivalent costs XP every time you use it
Shadow Evocation/Conjuration- Two great schools neatly packaged in two great spells. It would be like giving psions a 5th level telepathy power which let you use any telekinetic power you wanted.
Wall of Force- An invincible wall. Cute.
Telekinesis- What's this? Like 5 different psionic powers rolled into one. Buuuuusstteed.
Prismatic sphere- A wall that either kills you or you waste 7 spells getting through it. Psions certainly don't have this.
Rope Trick- AKA "Save Point". More endurance and better at recovering spells? The hell?
Create Undead- Oh boy: an army for nothing!
Blasphamy- Lets you kill a god with no save. That's not busted or anything.

Does this mean that core magic is busted? Probably not. But neither do a few questionable powers (for example, I agree on psychic reformation) mean that psionics are busted. So far all that you and others who like to rag on psionics have done is shown that psionics are different on a mechanical level than traditional magic. My own observations into the system are based on playing two psionic characters and DMing several games with them (including one game exclusively with psionic characters).

 

[Enamel_32]

I found, as a Psion, that endurance was a big problem. If I ramped up the strength on all my powers, I'd be using up power points too fast. Sure, if you only have one encounter per day, this isnt much of a problem, but the more battle one engages in, the more prudent one must be.

 

[KarinsDad]

I found, as a Psion, that endurance was a big problem. If I ramped up the strength on all my powers, I'd be using up power points too fast. Sure, if you only have one encounter per day, this isnt much of a problem, but the more battle one engages in, the more prudent one must be.

Same for other classes except possibly a Sorcerer where it is less likely.

Wizards, especially non-specialized ones, often have a problem on long missions because they cannot always backfill their scrolls. Since Wizards have fewer spells than most major spell casting classes, they can throw a handful of offensive spells on a given day, even at 10th level, and suddenly be out of worthwhile offensive spells for the next situation.

That rarely happens with Sorcerers or Psions.