Is the sleep spell d&d 5e too powerful

Jasondd

Villager
&D 5E. Ok,hear me out. Proof sleep is too powerful. Form a group of 4 players (fighter, rogue, priest, wizard), all of which level 1. So its fair to say in order, they would have an average of 12 hp, 8 hp, 9 hp and 6 hp. Let's imagine the wizard is a serial killer... he casts sleep with an average roll of 22 hp and he could roll higher (needing only 29 total) to put all three players to sleep (NO SAVING THROW). So for the next 10 rounds he has advantage + critical on all the players. This means he has a very high probability of killing all three players without breaking a sweat! No other class or spell has this capability at level one. This makes sleep the most powerful spell even though it is level 1. Btw, the command spell is 1 round, 1 target and a saving throw!
IS THE SLEEP SPELL TOO POWERFUL AND IN NEED OF A REVISION?
 

neogod22

Explorer
&D 5E. Ok,hear me out. Proof sleep is too powerful. Form a group of 4 players (fighter, rogue, priest, wizard), all of which level 1. So its fair to say in order, they would have an average of 12 hp, 8 hp, 9 hp and 6 hp. Let's imagine the wizard is a serial killer... he casts sleep with an average roll of 22 hp and he could roll higher (needing only 29 total) to put all three players to sleep (NO SAVING THROW). So for the next 10 rounds he has advantage + critical on all the players. This means he has a very high probability of killing all three players without breaking a sweat! No other class or spell has this capability at level one. This makes sleep the most powerful spell even though it is level 1. Btw, the command spell is 1 round, 1 target and a saving throw!
IS THE SLEEP SPELL TOO POWERFUL AND IN NEED OF A REVISION?
No because it doesn't scale well, and in indiscriminately puts to sleep everyone in the area including the caster and their allies. It always go from lowest HP to highest, so that usually means the most dangerous enemies are usually unaffected, and the spell does nit scale well. Most casters won't even take it, and if they do, they usually stop using it by 5th level.
 

Jasondd

Villager
Let' say the wizard cats the spell so that he is not in the area of affect? I want you to look at it as purely tactical. I mean, he has the capability of wiping out the group! Statistically speaking
 

Undrave

Adventurer
&D 5E. Ok,hear me out. Proof sleep is too powerful. Form a group of 4 players (fighter, rogue, priest, wizard), all of which level 1. So its fair to say in order, they would have an average of 12 hp, 8 hp, 9 hp and 6 hp. Let's imagine the wizard is a serial killer... he casts sleep with an average roll of 22 hp and he could roll higher (needing only 29 total) to put all three players to sleep (NO SAVING THROW). So for the next 10 rounds he has advantage + critical on all the players. This means he has a very high probability of killing all three players without breaking a sweat! No other class or spell has this capability at level one. This makes sleep the most powerful spell even though it is level 1. Btw, the command spell is 1 round, 1 target and a saving throw!
IS THE SLEEP SPELL TOO POWERFUL AND IN NEED OF A REVISION?
Where are you getting these "next 10 rounds he has advantage"? The target wakes up the moment it takes damage...

Sleep is a VERY strong spell in the early levels of the games when you have little spell slots to spend so it gives you more bang for your buck. However, as you gain more spell slots you could use it on, it starts to scale less effectively. By the time you're level 4 or 5, if you're not facing a single low CR enemy, you won't be able to do much with it.
 

Jasondd

Villager
Yet my example still stands. A player (wizard level 1) can wipe out a group of players level 1 with high probability! All the while using the rules...
 

neogod22

Explorer
Let' say the wizard cats the spell so that he is not in the area of affect? I want you to look at it as purely tactical. I mean, he has the capability of wiping out the group! Statistically speaking
It has the chance of wiping out a group of Kobolds. Mist creatures with more than 5hp, you'll be lucky to take out more than 2 or 3. Also, the spell does no damage and ends when someone takes an action to wake a sleeping person up, or they take damage. The spell is good for taking 2-5 minor enemies out of the fight, but that's about it.
 

Jasondd

Villager
Can you answer my question (from my example) please, thank you. A 1st level wizard has a high chance of wiping out the rest of his party with one spell, sleep!
 

neogod22

Explorer
Yet my example still stands. A player (wizard level 1) can wipe out a group of players level 1 with high probability! All the while using the rules...
Ok let's use your lvl 1 PvP example. Let's say it's a party of 6. Fighter, Paladin, rogue, cleric, and sorcerer. The wizard casts sleep on the party. Let's say they are all optimal builds. So (Hp), F=13, P=12, R=9, C=9, S=6. Wizard rolls 22hp for sleep. He will take out the sorcerer and cleric or rogue. That's it, and by the time the round ends, he's dead. It doesn't work in a PVP scenario, it doesn't do much when used properly unless you're fighting kobolds like I said.
 
Last edited:

LordEntrails

Adventurer
Sure, if the entire party is standing next to each other and they let all the wizard go first then what you say might happen. Tough even with a crit 12 hp will be tough for most wizards to get to at 1st level. And that's assuming that with a party of 4, with the HPs you've given, he someone manages to do 35 HP worth of sleep, which he won't.

No sleep is not overpowered. No we do not think it is too powerful.
 

Jasondd

Villager
Once again, you say six. I say 4 ( 3 not including yourself) even easier a party of 3. So once again, a 1st level spell capable of wiping out 2 ( possibly 3) party members with a high probablity chance of success!
 

Jasondd

Villager
I'm looking at this from a purely statistical point of view (which many players do) and I find that it is way too powerful. There should be a saving throw or some kind of modification?
 

the Jester

Legend
Can you answer my question (from my example) please, thank you. A 1st level wizard has a high chance of wiping out the rest of his party with one spell, sleep!
A 1st level rogue is probably more likely to TPK his party if he's a serial killer, simply by waiting until they are all asleep and going for a quiet auto-crit with sneak attack against each of 'em.

No, sleep isn't overpowered. Not even in your original scenario. You are ignoring the fact that as soon as the wizard does any damage to one of his buddies, that buddy wakes up... and can potentially wake another on his turn. Or just drop the wizard in one attack.

You should never check whether a feature is balanced by looking at a best-case pvp situation. You might not like that answer, but it's truly not how you determine the balance of things in D&D.
 

Jasondd

Villager
Sure, if the entire party is standing next to each other and they let all the wizard go first then what you say might happen. Tough even with a crit 12 hp will be tough for most wizards to get to at 1st level. And that's assuming that with a party of 4, with the HPs you've given, he someone manages to do 35 HP worth of sleep, which he won't.

No sleep is not overpowered. No we do not think it is too powerful.
The group doesn't even know there getting attacked, Bam (out of the blue and out of the affected area) he casts sleep!
 

Jasondd

Villager
A 1st level rogue is probably more likely to TPK his party if he's a serial killer, simply by waiting until they are all asleep and going for a quiet auto-crit with sneak attack against each of 'em.

No, sleep isn't overpowered. Not even in your original scenario. You are ignoring the fact that as soon as the wizard does any damage to one of his buddies, that buddy wakes up... and can potentially wake another on his turn. Or just drop the wizard in one attack.

You should never check whether a feature is balanced by looking at a best-case pvp situation. You might not like that answer, but it's truly not how you determine the balance of things in D&D.
A quarter staff does 1d8 + 1d8 (critical) + any other bonuses (advantage). So high chance of killing the rogue, then the cleric and maybe finish off the fighter.
 

Advertisement

Top