D&D 5E Is the Tarrasque tough enough?

[KarinsDad]

Let me see if I can break down the "jump" argument so we can continue to discuss it CIVILLY.

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] is interpreting the jump rule to mean that the distance described in the rule is with arms fully extended above his head, so that hand (or claws) barely reach that height.

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] is interpreting the jump rule to mean that the distance described in the rule is with arms down (so that the height reached is basically shoulder-level), and the creature is able to then use its arms (to the tune of the creature's Reach) to surpass that height.

Do I have that right?

Well, I am saying that in order to attack, it's height of creature (50) plus attack reach of creature (15) plus jump (13).

Mistwell stated that it was length of creature (70) plus jump reach (35) plus jump (13), and that was without adding in attack reach (15).

I am saying, no, one cannot use length of creature for height (length with regard to animals is typically from snout to end of tail, not top of head to bottom of feet, that's height), and no, one cannot use both reaches to attack. The jump reach states that the extra reach is for extending a creature's arms above its heads. If one is doing that, one is already reaching.

Now, I can see an argument for using 25 instead of the normal 15 as a specific rule vs. general rule, but even there, the jump rule has an implication for how high one can reach, not how high one can attack. If one is attacking (regardless of direction) and doing a high jump at the same time, one is not "jump reaching", one is attacking.

 

[Joe Liker]

Also note that 100 rounds may sound long, but actually is a mere 10 minutes. Hardly enough to destroy a village even for the tarrasque. There will likely be more damage from secondary sources (such as fires started from the smashed buildings spreading through town) than from the direct damage the tarrasque could inflict in its 10 minute rampage

I completely disagree. Ten minutes is more than enough time for the Tarrasque to flatten a village, or possibly even a small town.

Maybe not every single building in the outlying areas, but certainly every public structure of consequence in the village proper, along with most of the homes.

 

[KarinsDad]

I completely disagree. Ten minutes is more than enough time for the Tarrasque to flatten a village, or possibly even a small town.

While that is true if the Tarrasque were not fighting the PCs, I would think that a group of high level PCs could contain or even force the direction of the Tarrasque to some level.

Illusions, Wall of Force. There are just a lot of ways for PCs to at least influence the battle.


This does bring up the question as to whether a Tarrasque should be hindered by difficult terrain or not.

 

[Mistwell]

Let me see if I can break down the "jump" argument so we can continue to discuss it without talking past one another.

@KarinsDad is interpreting the jump rule to mean that the distance described in the rule is with arms fully extended above his head, so that hand (or claws) barely reach that height.

@Mistwell is interpreting the jump rule to mean that the distance described in the rule is with arms down (so that the height reached is basically shoulder-level), and the creature is able to then use its arms (to the tune of the creature's Reach) to surpass that height.

Do I have that right?

I am arguing that the running jump rules cover what you can get at with a move, and then the attack rule covers what you can Reach with your attack, starting from wherever you left off with your move. So the jump extends your arm a certain length, and then the attack accounts for attack Reach.

This split makes sense, because some creatures have a normal Reach for attacks but are very tall, while others have an unusually long Reach for attacks and are very tall, and the normal jump rules only cover the general rules for all creatures in terms of what they can get at with the jump movement, not for an attack made at the apex of their jump.

Here is an example to explain it: Let's say you two otherwise-identical 50' tall humanoids, each with a 14 strength (+2). One has a whip with 15' Reach to attack with, the other just attacks with their fist with a normal 5' Reach. They both want to attack a target (foe) above them, and want to know what the maximum height above them a target can be for their attack if they were to first make a running jump at it and then attack it.

The jump rule says (for this kind of jump where you move 10' forward first) that you can get at something overhead with a jump a distance equal to your jump, plus your height (50' in this case) multiplied by 1.5.

Both can jump the same height, both jump 5' up (the rule for such a jump in this example is 3+strength, which in this case is +2), and can get at something 75' up with their arms during this jump (50' height x 1.5 = 75'). So they can both get at something 80' (5' jump + 75' based on height) up with a jump (a move).

Both can attack at the apex of their jump. Just like any other move, where you can attack at any point during your move, and then continue to move after your attack...in this case, back down to the ground, and then perhaps further on along the ground if they wished and still had some movement left.

The difference comes with the whip. The 50' humanoid with the whip can attack something further up than the 50' humanoid with just a fist, because the whip adds Reach to the attack. The whip however does not add any additional feet to what that 50' humanoid can get at with just the jump, as Reach is only something that applies to an attack, and the jump itself is movement and not an attack.

So if the whip in this case has a Reach of 15', then the 50' humanoid with the whip can hit something above him a further 10' more than the 50' humanoid with just his fist, who only has a 5' reach with his fist. Both will be attacking from the same point in their jump - 80' up. So the one with the whip can hit something 95' up while the guy with the fist can only hit something 85' up.

That is my interpretation of how you would combine a running jump with an attack that involves reach. I appreciate that some disagree, but I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation of those rules.

 

[Mirtek]

I don't recall ever stating that you should give up after the first casualty, so kindly stop with the straw men. My point is that if you allow the Tarrasque 100 rounds to do whatever he wants when you could have killed it sooner? You've lost.

I disagree. Stopping the walking apocalypse in 10 minutes is a feat the bards will sing about for ages. Complaining you didn't stop it in 2 minutes is just silly.

Chalk it up to a general failure of the D&D combat system that battles of this magnitude are so laughably short in real time (any boxing match would end in round 1 in D&D)

If your house was on fire, would you shoot it with a squirt gun from far away until it was out because that's the "safe" way to do it? I doubt it.

If the differene between two approaches is a mere 8 minutes, I would certainly chose the way that doesn't risk my life even if the damage to my house would be greater.

 

[Tormyr]

Let me see if I can break down the "jump" argument so we can continue to discuss it without talking past one another.

@KarinsDad is interpreting the jump rule to mean that the distance described in the rule is with arms fully extended above his head, so that hand (or claws) barely reach that height.

@Mistwell is interpreting the jump rule to mean that the distance described in the rule is with arms down (so that the height reached is basically shoulder-level), and the creature is able to then use its arms (to the tune of the creature's Reach) to surpass that height.

Do I have that right?

I think it is closer to

Jump + height + attack reach (MM) 13 + 50 + 15 = 78 for [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION]
and
Jump + height + 1/2 height reach (PHB) 13 + 50 + 25 for [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]

The Tarrasque artwork shows the Tarrasque getting significantly taller and shorter based on how it stands. If the main picture is 50 feet tall, the upper picture could very well be taller. I believe Mistwell was referencing this and applying what was felt to be a reasonable amount. Whether that would translate into a jump and how much it would affect reach...
jump + standing upright + upright reach 13 + 70 +35 = 118
jump + standing upright + normal jump reach 13 + 70 + 25 = 108

Part of what drew me to D&D was that you can do just about anything within reason. Want to get across a crowded market square by running across people's heads? Sure! Want to smash through a wall into the next house of a terraced house to get at the thug that is shooting into the crowd below? There's a roll for that!

In the case of monsters, I do not see the stat block as restrictive. There are other things that a monster can do. Humanoids can pick up a different weapon and use it. They might not have proficiency with that weapon, but they can still use it. I view the rock attack for the Tarrasque similarly. It is basically picking up a weapon that other similar monsters use, but it does not have proficiency because it is not listed in the stat block.

I view the jumping Tarrasque similarly. It can jump 13 feet. It may even be able to raise up and extend its height a bit. If it tried to grab someone, I might give use the 108 number for its reach with disadvantage because it is stretched out so much. While I would use Jump + height + attack reach for an attack using disadvantage if it stood up tall for the extra 20 feet.

This strikes me as a "rulings not rules" or "Use the rules. Don't let the rules use you."~Psion type of situation. The stat block is not a restrictive list of what the monster can do. It is a list of what is common, but you can grab other parts of the rules that fit.

 

[Wrathamon]

Did you guys not watch Jurassic Park? When the raptor jumps up it uses it length and bites when they are crawling in the ceiling?

Just cause the book only mentions arms (because it's talking player character dimensions) doesnt mean you should rule that it can only jump up using its height and has to use its claws to get more reach. If we are using common sense to base what it can and cant do on its Int then we have to do the same for how it would jump up and bite.

Also, ridiculous that it can only jump 13ft? which is barely anything considering how big it is. Which you could say is a omission in the PHB but that is the player's handbook. You dont play 70ft long creatures. They added more monsters to the MM, instead of Monster rules.

This edition is about rulings, not rules. They dont have every edge case. No square pegs in round holes. If the rules arent applying perfectly you have to adjust the rules based on the situation.

I would also just have it just use the nearby buildings as stairs to get more height before it jumped up and ate you.

 

[KarinsDad]

So if the whip in this case has a Reach of 15', then the 50' humanoid with the whip can hit something above him a further 10' more than the 50' humanoid with just his fist, who only has a 5' reach with his fist. Both will be attacking from the same point in their jump - 80' up. So the one with the whip can hit something 95' up while the guy with the fist can only hit something 85' up.

That is my interpretation of how you would combine a running jump with an attack that involves reach. I appreciate that some disagree, but I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation of those rules.

Let's take something more familiar as an example:

6 foot tall human with 12 Str.

We both agree that he can high jump 4 feet for a total of 10. Same human, with fist and with whip.

1a) Fist using jump reach: 10 + 3 = 13.
2a) Fist using attack reach: 10 + 5 = 15.
3a) Fist using attack reach plus jump reach: 10 + 5 + 3 = 18.

1b) Whip using jump reach: 10 + 3 = 13.
2b) Whip using attack reach: 10 + 15 = 25.
3b) Whip using attack reach plus jump reach: 10 + 15 + 3 = 28.

I don't view 1b as a reasonable interpretation of the rules, so I don't view 1a as a reasonable interpretation of the rules. It should work the same for both cases.

I also don't view 3a as a reasonable interpretation of the rules. Given that his maximum reach is 13 feet up, he should not be able to attack 18 feet up. This extends his arm out twice, once for maximum reaching and once for attack reaching. They are effectively the same thing. So, I view 3b the same way, even though there is little difference in the math there for the whip case (3 feet.

This leaves 2a and 2b as the best interpretations. Not just because they mathematically make the most sense, but the extra x1/2 jump rule is discussing reaching up with both arms (presumably to touch or grab something) and not as an attack.


Now extrapolating this to a giant sized creature 50 feet tall and 30 Str, the reason that such creatures have 15 or 20 feet long reaches is that they have limbs that can basically reach that far. For a 50 foot tall creature with a normal reach of 15 and one of 25 using a whip:

1a) Fist using jump reach: 63 (i.e. 50 tall +3 jump +10 str) + 25 = 88.
2a) Fist using attack reach: 63 + 15 = 78.
3a) Fist using attack reach plus jump reach: 63 + 15 + 25 = 103.

1b) Whip using jump reach: 63 + 25 = 88.
2b) Whip using attack reach: 63 + 25 = 88.
3b) Whip using attack reach plus jump reach: 63 + 25 +25 = 113.

3c just does not make sense. A creature that is 50 feet tall that can normally attack 75 feet with a whip into the air should not be able to jump up and attack something 113 feet in the air. That's the equivalent of a 28 foot jump, not a 13 foot jump.

 

[KarinsDad]

Did you guys not watch Jurassic Park? When the raptor jumps up it uses it length and bites when they are crawling in the ceiling?

Just cause the book only mentions arms (because it's talking player character dimensions) doesnt mean you should rule that it can only jump up using its height and has to use its claws to get more reach. If we are using common sense to base what it can and cant do on its Int then we have to do the same for how it would jump up and bite.

Right. The jump reach rules should not be used. Arms are not in play with a bite.

If the Tarrasque wants to jump up and attack with a bite, it should be:

3 + 10 str + 50 height + 10 bite reach = 73 feet.

 

[Mistwell]

Did you guys not watch Jurassic Park? When the raptor jumps up it uses it length and bites when they are crawling in the ceiling?

Just cause the book only mentions arms (because it's talking player character dimensions) doesnt mean you should rule that it can only jump up using its height and has to use its claws to get more reach. If we are using common sense to base what it can and cant do on its Int then we have to do the same for how it would jump up and bite.

Also, ridiculous that it can only jump 13ft? which is barely anything considering how big it is. Which you could say is a omission in the PHB but that is the player's handbook. You dont play 70ft long creatures. They added more monsters to the MM, instead of Monster rules.

This edition is about rulings, not rules. They dont have every edge case. No square pegs in round holes. If the rules arent applying perfectly you have to adjust the rules based on the situation.

I would also just have it just use the nearby buildings as stairs to get more height before it jumped up and ate you.

This is how I view it as well. KD thinks it's not just a houserule to view it this way, but is in some way "beyond" a houserule and "making stuff up".