Is The Temple of Elemental Evil a well-designed adventure module?

[Vigilance]

In the end, the difference between your approach and mine is that mine fosters discussion, yours shuts it down. I contend that makes my approach objectively better.

Right, because we're not talking right now.

Your definition of discussion must involve me recognizing your brilliance.

 

[Hussar]

Well, no Vigilence. The difference is SWBaxter is not confusing his personal tastes with any sort of design excellence. I like/don't like it in no way actually defines something as good or not. It only defines it as good or not FOR YOU.

 

[Melan]

Here is some concrete evidence for the posts (#23, #25) I made yesterday regarding the merits of Keep on the Borderlands. All quotes are from the module.

Dungeon Mastering Keep on the Borderlands (p 2.):

THE KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS is simply offered for your use as a way to move smoothly and rapidly into your own special continuing adventures or campaigns. Read the module thoroughly; you will notice that the details are left in your hands. This allows you to personalize the scenario, and suit it to what you and your players will find most enjoyable.

p 3.

After you have explained the background, allow your players to begin interacting with their characters. Give them time to wander around the KEEP, learning what is there, finding the limits of their freedom, and meeting the other „inhabitants” of the place. They may quickly establish their base in the Traveler’s Inn, purchase their equipment, and then visit the tavern – where they may gather bits of information for their coming adventures.

The inn and the tavern (p 10.):

14. TRAVELERS INN: This long, low structure has five small private rooms and a large common sleeping room for a full dozen. (Servants and the like always sleep in the stables, 4,, of course.) Private rooms cost 1 g.p. per night, but sleeping in the common room is only one silver piece per night. The innkeeper and his family live in a small loft above the inn. They are obviously normal persons of no fighting ability. This building is some 18’ high.

15. TAVERN: This place is a favourite of visitors and inhabitants of the KEEP alike. The food is excellent, the drinks generous and good. The place is always active, with 4-16 (4d4) patrons at any time of day or night. The bill of fare reads:
<snip>
The barkeep, if talking with a good customer and drinking to his health, will sometimes talk about the lands around the keep (1 drink per story, half of which may be true). He is known to hate small beer and love honey mead. There is a 50% chance that 2-5 (d4 + 1) of the patrons will be mercenary men-at-arms looking for work. (AC 6, F 1, hp 5 each, #AT 1, D 1-6, ML 7.) Each will have leather armor & shield, and sword and dagger; all other desired equipment must be purchased by the employer, including missile weapons, [sic] and dungeon gear. Wages for duty include all gear purchased, room and board and 1 s.p. per day of service. If no gear is purchased, the cost rises to 1 g.p. per day. (Note that a mere spear or minor equipment is considered as no gear.) It is alway necessary to buy mercenaries a drink before discussing terms of employment. There is a 10% chance that each of the following persons will be in the tavern at any given time:
CORPORAL OF THE WATCH
CAPTAIN OF THE WATCH
BAILIFF (see 6., above)
PRIEST (see 7b.,, above)
2-4 WATCHMEN (see 12., above)
SERGEANT OF THE GUARD (see 18., below)
WANDERER (a 2nd or 3rd level fighter, dwarf, elf, or halfling as the DM decides, with complete equipment for adventuring; such a wanderer is 75% likely to join an expedition if offered 25% of the treasure gained, but 1 in 6 will be of chaotic alignment).
<snip info about taverner stats and goodies>

Based on this evidence, it seems to me that
a) the module explicitely recommends the DM to modify for his own needs (there are other quotes other than the one I supplied, but I didn’t type in those...);
b) the module assumes the game will start with an exploration of the keep and that the tavern will have a crucial role;
c) contrary to claims made here and in the Keep on the Borderlands thread, the inn is by no means a replacement for the tavern. It is a place to sleep in, but doesn’t offer anything else – for rumors, hiring and NPC encounters, the PCs have to visit the tavern.

Also, the total description of the keep takes up six pages of text and two pages of maps (one of which is dedicated to the - IMHO mostly superfluous - map of the guild house in the keep. The wilderness and the dungeon take up 11.5 pages of text and three pages of maps (two on the inner cover, one inside the booklet). General and specific DMing info is cca. 5 pages. The remainig six are for charts, lists and other miscellaneous matter, for a total of 26 pages including the dungeon maps.

The Village of Hommlet, another 24 page module, spends 1.5 pages on DMing notes, a whopping 9 pages on the village, two pages of village maps, three pages of village floor plans, leaving only four pages to the actual adventure and two pages to moathouse and dungeon maps. There are also three blank pages for some inexplicable reason. In the same space, B2 introduced a „whole microcosm, a world in miniature” (Gary’s words ) and them some!

Of course, I don’t intend to say that there should be a formula determining how much space in a module should be dedicated to certain elements, or that calculating page count can provide us with valuable insights into adventure design. However, the proportions are certainly off here.

[I have to say one good thing about T1: the cover of the mono version is one of the best TSR did, right there with the Otus Basic Set, the City of Brass DMG and Trampier’s idol cover PHB.]

 

[Dr Simon]

The Village of Hommlet, another 24 page module, spends 1.5 pages on DMing notes, a whopping 9 pages on the village, two pages of village maps, three pages of village floor plans, leaving only four pages to the actual adventure and two pages to moathouse and dungeon maps. There are also three blank pages for some inexplicable reason. In the same space, B2 introduced a „whole microcosm, a world in miniature” (Gary’s words ) and them some!

With that sort of weighting, one might be safe in assuming that the village would play more of a part in the adventure, but (taking T1 in isolation) it doesn't particularly. From that respect, I would say it is poorly designed since it spends a lot of time describing elements that will not be used in play. Elements like a tavern, guild hall, church and higher-level wizard - these are surely all staples of a D&D base town, but the detailing of every farmer and his old sword in the attic is perhaps a bit superfluous?

 

[Melan]

Dr Simon: precisely, that's the gist of my argument.

 

[Dr Simon]

Dr Simon: precisely, that's the gist of my argument.

Do I get any XP for that?

 

[diaglo]

Do I get any XP for that?

yes. 5 xp to be awarded for a normal 0 lvl foe.

 

[Melan]

Since I've got cca. 2000 HUF in my pockets, which is equivalent to about 9 USD, you also gain +9 for the loot.

 

[Quasqueton]

Someone, above, pointed out that T1 was titled, “The Village of Hommlet”, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that most of the info in the module is about the village of Hommlet. You know, I hadn’t really considered this, but now that it’s pointed out, I think that is a really interesting note.

Was T1 a town setting with a dungeon (the Moathouse) included, and published in module form? Or was it a dungeon adventure with a town included? It if was a town setting first, was it a bad idea (misleading) to publish it in the same form that TSR published adventures?

But then, what about Keep on the Borderlands and the Caves of Chaos? Following the “town setting” assumption above with VoH, should KotB be considered a town setting with a dungeon included, and published in module form?

And what about The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh? There’s no village setting there, even though the town name is in the title of the module.

Against the Cult of the Reptile God is another module with a town setting a prominent part of it. Although, the town is part of the adventure, so maybe this is different. Plus, the town’s name isn’t in the title of the module.

How about the Freeport series? Is it a town setting with an adventure, or is it an adventure with a town setting?

Quasqueton

 

[Melan]

Quasqueton: TSR released T1 as a "module". Although we usually associate this term with "adventure", it was in fact understood to be a wider concept - a module could be any modular part you coud insert into your game, including, concievably, a village.

I base my statements about T1's quality not on the type of product T1 is supposed to be; it might as well be a village setting. However, most of its content isn't well suited to the type of adventuring AD&D is designed for. From this perspective, T1 is badly designed. BTW, I would say the title's role should be to draw attention and feel "natural". Keep on the Borderlands could be called "The Caves of Chaos", or B1 "The Lost Dungeons of Quasqueton", but there is no other intuitive name for T1 other than "Village of Hommlet". "Abandoned Moathouse" would be just lame.