Is the Unearthed Arcana SRD online?

I am fully aware of that. I only tried to simplify and shorten my posting but obviously this wasn't very clever. :)

Cergorach said:
Please reread the License again, material derived of the SRD or OGC is by devinition OGC as well.
Yes but this only means, that the stuff, that was taken from the SRD(for example) is OGC. Everything else in the book can still be closed. If I create an NPC using the SRD ruleset, then this does not mean, that the NPC is automatically OGC.

Cergorach said:
WotC did have a choice, they could have made a seperate agreement with the OGC contributors featured, this could be done if all parties involved agreed. They didn't probably to much of an hassle.
I should have written: "Of course they are fully aware of the consequences but like I said, they had no other viable choice."
 

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RavenProject said:
I am fully aware of that. I only tried to simplify and shorten my posting but obviously this wasn't very clever. :)
No it wasn't ;-)
RavenProject said:
Yes but this only means, that the stuff, that was taken from the SRD(for example) is OGC. Everything else in the book can still be closed. If I create an NPC using the SRD ruleset, then this does not mean, that the NPC is automatically OGC.
The name, the description, the image aren't. The game related rules are, thus any special attacks or abilities it might have would be OGC, and of course the statblock.
RavenProject said:
I should have written: "Of course they are fully aware of the consequences but like I said, they had no other viable choice."
Maybe your divinition of viable is different from mine, because i do see it as a viable alternative, just not an easy one. Just because it's not the easiest way, doesn't mean it isn't viable...
 

Setanta said:
Well, right now I use rules from WotC and many third party publishers, because they were all written for the same game. Choice is good. If WotC makes 4E closed, then they'll be writing rules for one game, and everyone else will be writing rules for another game (OGL D20 or another system), which will either reduce the choices available to me or increase my work as I would need to convert stuff.

Why do you, as a player, care whether 4e is open content or not?

I presume it's because you would rather play a game published and supported by dozens of companies, instead of published and NOT supported by one big company.

So if 4e comes out and it's not Open, what? You're going to suddenly turn around this line of thinking and buy into a game that is NOT supported by a large, open publishing community?

I just don't see how anyone who has even the shallowest understanding of the OGL can be remotely concerned about whether or not 4e is open; or how those with a deeper understanding of what the OGL means and why it was done in the first place would consider for a moment that 4e would be closed.


Wulf
 

barsoomcore said:
If WotC never publishes another word of OGC, how does that hurt the d20 world?

And let's just point out, 4e notwithstanding, the majority of WOTC publications are already closed content.

We wouldn't be having this argument at all if it weren't for the fact the UA is WOTC's first substantive publication that contains any open content.


Wulf
 

barsoomcore said:
Okay, so if UA is OGC because some non-trivial percent of its content was ALREADY OGC, then this debate just got even more absurd.

If the content is already OGC, then WotC is doing exactly what people are saying is so terrible for the industry -- Hoovering up OGC and spitting it back out onto the market without adding any value to it.

Where are the publishers who originally created this content? Why aren't they boo-hooing over how unethical WotC is to not understand that they didn't MEAN IT when they printed the OGL in their products?

I could have put this content up on my website BEFORE the book came out, so how come doing it AFTER the book comes out is suddenly a "sleazy" thing to do? Stuff and nonsense.

EXACTLY.

You should have left it as a double post, because it is THAT IMPORTANT. I took the liberty of bolding my favorite part.

Wulf
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
I took the liberty of bolding my favorite part.
Oh, sure. You're just going to redistribute my post, is that it, regardless of how I may feel about it? What if I don't want you to do that? Just because I posted in this thread doesn't mean you can quote me in this thread, you know. You're nothing but an exploitative sleazeball.

And a meanie.
 

Setanta said:
I imagine a lot of the people who staunchly stand by the OGL as a legal way of getting stuff for free are also people who complain if they're pulled over going 5 mph (or even 8 kph) over the speed limit in broad daylight on an open road, saying "But I was driving perfectly safely!"


Prove your accusation. Cite real evidence that this is the case. Of course, you did include sufficient weasel words in your post to be able to worm out of it if you are called on your accusation. Well, I'm calling you out:

You are flat-out accusing those who would do A of also doing B. Prove that this is the case. Or are you just going to weasel about it? If you weasel, what does this say about your credibility as a source on what is and is not UNIVERSALLY "ethical"?
 

Egads, lots of posts while the message boards were slow this morning. First, I generally void this kind of thing (note the low post count combined with the old join date- I'm a lurker, not a poster) because I've seen too many of these things devolve, but the two main people I'm conversing with here are being cool even though we don't agree. That's great.

Dogbrain posted:
Prove your accusation. Cite real evidence that this is the case. Of course, you did include sufficient weasel words in your post to be able to worm out of it if you are called on your accusation. Well, I'm calling you out:
ou are flat-out accusing those who would do A of also doing B. Prove that this is the case. Or are you just going to weasel about it? If you weasel, what does this say about your credibility as a source on what is and is not UNIVERSALLY "ethical"?
Look, everyone that I've this conversation with (face to face, not over the Internet) complains about being pulled over for going barely over the speed limit if they perceive their driving to have been safe. Who knows, maybe it's a California thing (everyone speeds in LA), but there it is. So, those people are basically applying the spirit of the law ("drive safely") and largely ignoring the letter of law ("drive at a ridiculously low speed for no apparent reason"). Maybe that's why I understood the analogy immediately when someone else posted it. The original poster also lives in the LA area. On this thread, everyone I'm disagreeing with is standing behind the letter of the OGL, which is fine. I'm just saying choosing to follow the letter or the spirit of the law depending on which one is most advantageous is something of a double standard.

As for accusations, I'm not the one using words like weasel and worm in my posts. My "weasel words" as you called them are there to make it clear I'm speculating, nothing more.
 

Although it appears that this thread has devolved into something akin to namecalling, I'll try to clarify some of my earlier thoughts on the matter just in case anyone's still paying attention. Note that these opinions (like any that I share here or elsewhere) are MINE, not those of my employer.

1) I'm the reason that UA is open content. I was the lead designer/developer on the book, and it was my crazy idea way back at the start of the process to make the book open. (Obviously, a lot of other people had to agree--I don't actually have the power to make something that significant happen.)

2) I think the d20 system license and the OGL are great for the industry. Obviously, publishers have to be careful about why, how, and when they use these tools, but I think overall, it's been beneficial both to consumers and to publishers.

3) I'm fiercely protective of copyright, regardless of who owns it. I believe that it's no more "OK" to illegally distribute a book that's sold 100 million copies for a multibillion dollar transnational megacorporation than to rip off a guy trying to make rent money by self-publishing his fiction. I recognize that not everyone shares this opinion--I've had to come down hard on a player *in my own campaign* who illegally obtained electronic files of books written by people I sit next to.

4) Even after more than 3 years, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how #1, #2, and #3 all work together. Obviously, by making material Open, a publisher is allowing for its redistribution by other parties--that's the whole point, after all. On the other hand, does that mean it's morally OK for me to scan & post on my site the open content of every d20 product that hits the market? There's a slippery slope there, and I think it's fair to say that different people are comfortable standing on different parts of the slope. Personally, I feel most comfortable toward the least-slippery part of the slope; I wouldn't feel good about widely redistributing significant portions of Open Content except as part of a new product designed to add additional value to the entire system (or for my own personal use, but even then I'd only do so from a product I already legally owned). To do otherwise, I believe, is a disservice to those who've put hard work into the creation of that content, and ultimately serves to dissuade companies from continuing the practice.

5) I also recognize that in the end, people are going to do what they want to do. Those who want to download illegal copies of a sourcebook--whether its from Wizards, Malhavoc, Game Mechanics, or anyone else--will find a way to do it. That doesn't make the practice any less abhorrent to me, and I don't think it justifies the stance of "I might as well post it, since they'll get it somewhere else anyway." Just as "I won't get caught" doesn't make stealing OK, neither does "someone else would do it anyway."

I realize that in today's get-everything-for-free-on-the-Internet culture, these opinions probably mark me as the equivalent of a crotchety old geezer. :) I guess I'll just have to live with that.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies things a little bit, and that at least one person finds it vaguely informative. If anyone feels like discussing this with me further, I'd encourage you to come over to my boards at www.andycollins.net, where I'm a much more frequent visitor and am thus more likely to see your post.
 

Setanta said:
I was thinking of Nikolai when I used the term villified. I must have missed his later post where he said it wasn't personal. However, he had quite a bit to say about Andy. If you want examples, checkout his posts on page 5, toward the top. Bendris also had some stuff to say about Andy's opinion putting him in a bad light- not quite villifaction, so maybe the word was too strong, but Andy did catch some flak.

Setanta said:
As noted in my reply to barsoomcore above, it was mainly Nikolai, but you did say Andy's comments put him in a bad light. That's not quite villifying him, but it's more flak than I think he deserves for stating his opinion on the matter.

I think I should probably say something. I posted three posts on page 5 and have linked to them below. If you wish to report any of my posts to the moderators, please do so. Though I feel they've probably already been read and "passed".

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1488314&postcount=102
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1489192&postcount=109
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1489316&postcount=118

At the time there was a pretty contentious debate on the validity of the UA SRD, and Andy's post seemed to have damaged its prospects. I said I felt his opinion was misguided, had done some damage, and that I hoped people would ignore it. I'm glad to see the project is still going ahead. There was nothing aimed at Andy as a person, just at his opinion.

I can't see why you're dragging me into this. What I said isn't relevant to the case you're trying to make. It isn't even me you've been debating the OGL with! If you want quote something specific I said that you think is out of line, you are welcome to. There's not really much I can do with an unsubstantiated accusation that I've been vilifying Andy, other that to say it isn't the case.
 
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