Is the Unearthed Arcana SRD online?

[Bendris Noulg]

Here's a spin from a publisher... DON'T ask me if you can use my OGC... I simply can't be bothered with "can I use this" and "can I use that" all day. I have more important things to do than worry about it. Just use it... that's why I gave you the stuff as OGC in the first place. I'm in the business of "publishing," not "licensing."

This... This... This is just beautiful, man. Thank you. >sniff<

Now, I would love it if you give me a holler to let me know when you release a product that has my OGC in it, so I can see how my "child" has "grown up," but that's not mandatory, either.

Y'know, I do have some stuff on my "to use" list that's got your name attached. I'll gladly contact you on release if that's what you'd really like. However, I wouldn't consider anything ported into Aedon as "grown up"... Cloned and genetically altered would be closer to the matter. But, sure, no problem.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Just to chime in yet again: I think the development of a sensible business plan based on the reality of the OGL has not yet been completely figured out besides the original Dancey plan for WotC -- to sell more PHB's. And that one can't really be considered completely verified yet.

Y'know, every time I read that, it makes me wonder. I mean, obviously the OGL alone doesn't promote PHB sales. Considering things like Arcana Unearthed, M&M, Conan, Slain, Engel, and other OGL-only products provide alternates to PHB-style characters and character advancement, I'd say the "task" of promoting PHB sales (or, alternatively, Modern) falls on the d20STL. Of course, those PHB-independant products obviously promotes further popularity and use of the d20 System, but only the d20STL requires mention of the PHB or d20 Modern as something necessary for play.

I think that's another thing to consider: OGL Products that "pull away" from WotC's baseline products (D&D and Modern) are becoming more numerous and, with each incarnation, more popular. There are entire games out there that can be played without anyone in the group even owning a PHB (and no, I don't mean using the SRD as a cheap substitute, but games that are completely stand-alone). Even if I wasn't big on my own home-brew, I could still easily pick up any of these other games and never look in WotC's direction again.

So I gotta ask: Those of you that believe OGC extractions might "scare off" WotC or result in a "closed" 4E, what are your opinions of OGL-only products? As each of these reduces the appearant "need" for the Player's Handbook by producing games that are independant of the Core Rulebooks in-total, making new methods of Character Creation and Level Advancement available (some of them OGC and some of them not), wouldn't these be far more impacting of WotC's view of the OGL? Do you believe that WotC would be more put-off by an extraction of OGC from Unearthed Arcana than they were by a book that was promoted as an "alternate Player's Handbook" by their own former employee?

 

[Jarf]

Follow the money

Hi everybody, new to posting at EN World. Here are my two cents (from a small publisher/author point of view). I don't presume to speak for anyone else, but these are my thoughts and experiences:

Although I'm not involved in any of these projects, I'll note that:

* At least one major 3rd-party book is being turned into an "SRD" by readers, with the blessings of the publisher, no less. (I can't immediately recall which, but it is linked to in this thread.)
* Many more people own UA than any given 3rd-party book, with the possible exceptions of some of the very early products. This makes it much easier to get enough people together to gather the OGC.

Once a third-party publisher's initial print run (probably 800 to 2000 copies for a small publisher) is sold out, I don't see any reason why the publisher would have a problem with an SRD being developed. Reprints are more expensive since you probably aren't printing as many.

I can't speak for WOTC (since I have no connection to them), but I suspect that for DnD to remain viable, it has to produce revenue by way of selling hardcovers. There's probably a (financial) reason they don't sell the other stuff - 50 page modules aren't big money makers.

For a small publisher, margins are tight in this business; releasing substantial amounts of OGC material for free (online, for instance) just isn't an option until the production costs (at least) are covered - not unless you have some other source of income. Once the product is sold-out (or almost sold-out), the situation changes.

Keep in mind that although someone probably won't print out and use a 1000 page SRD, they very well might do the same for a 50 or 100 page sourcebook or module.

For what it is worth, I'm not in this for the money - I have a "day job".

----

As a sidenote, people have mentioned the "spirit" of Open-Game. To me, that "spirit" means:

- you can borrow Open concepts and ideas and incorporate them into your own work, or copy snippets for personal use. I haven't done this yet but would certainly let the publisher know first - I would hope that other publishers did the same. Courtesy is not without value.

"Spirit" doesn't mean (to me):

- you should copy and use the entire contents of a book, minus the Product Indentity, to avoid paying ten or twenty bucks. A man's gotta eat, after all.

 

[Cergorach]

As a sidenote, people have mentioned the "spirit" of Open-Game. To me, that "spirit" means:

- you can borrow Open concepts and ideas and incorporate them into your own work, or copy snippets for personal use. I haven't done this yet but would certainly let the publisher know first - I would hope that other publishers did the same. Courtesy is not without value.

"Spirit" doesn't mean (to me):

- you should copy and use the entire contents of a book, minus the Product Indentity, to avoid paying ten or twenty bucks. A man's gotta eat, after all.

For us who work on such a 'project', it isn't about 'free stuff' it's about:
- utility (searchable text, copyable text, etc.)
- standards (avoiding dozens of different rules that cover the same thing)
- accessibility (electronic formats allow different means of accessing them, rules can be 'read' by blind people)
- availability (some good books are out of print, releasing OGC prevents scarry ebay prices)

I'm also of the opinion that there are way to many 'publishers' out there that are putting out substandard products. Releasing good OGC verbatim means that there will be a lot of substandard 'publishers' that won't sell their crappy stuff, eventually getting it that they should stay away from 'publishing', making more room for the good publishers. Also by releasing OGC from crappy publishers means that people will see what kind of crap they are getting before they buy. This might seem outrageous, but if applied correctly might make the D20 market a lot more attractive for quality publishers. Some people still curse the day that Fast Forward Entertainment was summoned to the D20 market by a Malkavian, if they had only known what they where buying...

 

[Aaron2]

Y'know, every time I read that, it makes me wonder. I mean, obviously the OGL alone doesn't promote PHB sales. Considering things like Arcana Unearthed, M&M, Conan, Slain, Engel, and other OGL-only products provide alternates to PHB-style characters and character advancement, I'd say the "task" of promoting PHB sales (or, alternatively, Modern) falls on the d20STL. Of course, those PHB-independant products obviously promotes further popularity and use of the d20 System, but only the d20STL requires mention of the PHB or d20 Modern as something necessary for play.

As the market leader, D&D gets a high percentage of RPG sales regardless of what is driving the market. At least that's what Ryan Dancy's research found. So, even if V:TM is was creating the buzz in the market, D&D sales increased.

While it might be possible for a group to play multiple d20 games without ever buying a PHB, I just don't see it happening. Gamers tend to be collectors first.

As for 4e. I'd be suprised if it wasn't OGL since they would have a hard time getting players to migrate. WotC relies on 3rd parties to developed the stuff that they need but isn't cost effective to do themselves (adventures, questionable licenses etc).

I think that's another thing to consider: OGL Products that "pull away" from WotC's baseline products (D&D and Modern) are becoming more numerous and, with each incarnation, more popular.

I really hope this isn't the case. As OGL product stray further and further from D&D, I lose interest. I'm a huge REH fan but passed on Conan because they changed too much (esp. since I don't agree with most of the changes). Same with Judge Dredd. Unfortunately, we'll never know how well a d20 Conan would have sold if it was compatable and balanced for normal D&D play. I would have bought it.


Aaron

 

[Bendris Noulg]

As the market leader, D&D gets a high percentage of RPG sales regardless of what is driving the market. At least that's what Ryan Dancy's research found. So, even if V:TM is was creating the buzz in the market, D&D sales increased.

Ah, yes... I forgot about that particular spin on things. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Jarf]

What it is about and such

For us who work on such a 'project', it isn't about 'free stuff' it's about:
- utility (searchable text, copyable text, etc.)
- standards (avoiding dozens of different rules that cover the same thing)
- accessibility (electronic formats allow different means of accessing them, rules can be 'read' by blind people)
- availability (some good books are out of print, releasing OGC prevents scarry ebay prices)

I'm also of the opinion that there are way to many 'publishers' out there that are putting out substandard products. Releasing good OGC verbatim means that there will be a lot of substandard 'publishers' that won't sell their crappy stuff, eventually getting it that they should stay away from 'publishing', making more room for the good publishers. Also by releasing OGC from crappy publishers means that people will see what kind of crap they are getting before they buy. This might seem outrageous, but if applied correctly might make the D20 market a lot more attractive for quality publishers. Some people still curse the day that Fast Forward Entertainment was summoned to the D20 market by a Malkavian, if they had only known what they where buying...

Well, if that's why you're doing it, I guess that's what the "spirit" of OGC means to you. Your points all sound pretty reasonable to me. Please note that I never said that I thought you were doing it for "free stuff" - all I was saying was that if somone was doing it for that reason, it wasn't in what I consider to be the "spirit" of OGC. It is all just my opinion, anyway - people are free to do as they please (within the limits of just laws, of course). Gamers tend to be a pretty independent and opinionated group and I wouldn't dream of trying to force my opinion (or will) on any of them.

Personally, I'm glad WOTC put most of the book out as OGC - that allows us to consider the incorporation of some great mechanics (e.g. sanity) into future products.

I personally owe WOTC some gratitude anyway - without OGL, very few people would be producing anything. Some folks may not think it is the best system, but it is an OPEN system. I can't remember many small publishers in the late 70s and 80s putting out DnD compatible materials - Judges Guild is about the only one that comes to mind, although a few small companies did put out modules (where hit points were referred to as htk [hits-to-kill] and such nonsense). As a result, I've got a closet full of completely unrelated RPGs that rarely get touched (Runequest, Traveller, GURPs, Call of Cthulhu, Thieves Guild, etc). Back then, even if there was a great system (I love Chaosium's), it was proprietary and therefore off-limits.

I agree with you about substandard publishers - unfortunately, mediocre businesses exist in every sector of life. One of the primary reasons we decided to produce our own stuff was because we were dissatisfied with what we were seeing - we wanted "more realistic" elements than the market was providing.

However - that said, one person's "crap" is another person's treasure. For example, I wouldn't dream of telling a munchkin or power-gamer who prefers playing minotaur sorcerers with pierced tongues and +25 mithril horns of virility that they are wrong - they just like something different. Neither would I dream of becoming a member of the Planetary Publishing Police, dedicated to eradicating "crappy publishers" everywhere Between my professional career, running a couple side-businesses, writing, my family, and gaming, I just don't have the time (or interest) - if I don't like something, I either a) won't buy it or b) if I already bought it, will be much more cautious when buying future products from that publisher. But if policing the shelves is somone's bag, more power to them. No skin off my back - if someone likes what I'm selling, they'll buy it. If not, they won't, regardless of the existance of OGC/OGL/PI/GNU/CL. Free will.

I do have the advantage of commuting through Orlando almost every month, where I can peruse the shelves of Sci-Fi City to determine which products look like they're worth the money - I might well have a different viewpoint if I were buying everything sight-unseen through Amazon (or somewhere like that).

To summarize: I suspect that if a publisher keeps producing "crap", the market will take care of them sooner or later, with or without my help. Most of the small publishers are probably just fulfilling a personal goal or dream, anyway, rather than trying to create an industry-swallowing behemoth.

 

[kenjib]

As a sidenote, people have mentioned the "spirit" of Open-Game. To me, that "spirit" means:

- you can borrow Open concepts and ideas and incorporate them into your own work, or copy snippets for personal use. I haven't done this yet but would certainly let the publisher know first - I would hope that other publishers did the same. Courtesy is not without value.

"Spirit" doesn't mean (to me):

- you should copy and use the entire contents of a book, minus the Product Indentity, to avoid paying ten or twenty bucks. A man's gotta eat, after all.

Do you think the Green Ronin pocket phb breaks the spirit of open-game? How about the folks selling the d20 SRD in pdf format?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Please note that I never said that I thought you were doing it for "free stuff" - all I was saying was that if somone was doing it for that reason, it wasn't in what I consider to be the "spirit" of OGC.

True, but allow me to bring up a point: If I'm transcribing it, I have it. It's hardly free if it's bought and paid for. Granted, some people might want an extraction for the sake of getting free stuff. But those of us doing extractions have obtained the material at standard cost.

Admittedly, someone could obtain a pirated copy and do an extraction, and no one could tell the difference; I would agree that this is a "double-wrong", as the extraction would be used by others in good-faith that everything about the document (which includes origins) was on the up-and-up. I would likely be very vocal about making such a thing known should I ever learn about it.

 

[Jarf]

Do you think the Green Ronin pocket phb breaks the spirit of open-game? How about the folks selling the d20 SRD in pdf format?

Hmmm. Tricky...

No, in my point of view GR (or is it Mongoose?) producing the pocket phb (and other people selling the pdf) doesn't break "the spirit of open-game". Here's why:

From the SRD FAQ , about halfway down the page.

Q: Could I publish the whole thing?
A: Sure. If you think someone would be willing to pay for it, you're more than welcome to try.


GR is filling a void by providing materials (the SRD) that are already available on-line for free (and were placed there by the original publisher, no less). To me, that isn't the same as stripping out every drop of OGC from an existing product and reselling it under a different title.

Whether enough people are willing to pay for the pocket phb to make it worth publishing remains to be seen - I personally think it is a pretty good idea, although I don't see myself buying one. I don't generally game in tight spaces and don't mind lugging a full-sized book around. I usually use the electronic SRD when I'm writing, anyway, to avoid accidental PI references.

Besides, if I post the text of a book on-line and flat-out tell people that they are free to print it out and sell it, I can't really complain when they do. I think the SRD materials are a special case, in any event, since they are the backbone of the whole Open Game concept.

To summarize: It believe it is your right to do whatever you want with OGC, within the bounds of your personal ethical code.