Is the Unearthed Arcana SRD online?

woodelf

First Post
kenjib said:
I have two points.

The first is that if so-called ethical use of the OGL requires that you understand some kind of "spirit" that isn't in the word of the license and indeed only exists in the inner circles of some OGL mailing list for publishers or buried two years back on the message board of each respective publisher, then the OGL is a very, very, poorly written legal document and anyone who releases material under it has poor business sense. If making a free PDF release of all of the open content in Unearthed Arcana is not completely okay, ethical, and uncontested by WotC, then WotC needs to draft up a new revised license and start releasing material under that instead (including re-releasing all prior material, such as the SRDs).

Some of us have been saying this for years. Oh, and the OGL list is open to anyone, so you, too, can hear the plethora of contradictory opinions on what the WotC OGL actually means. The problem isn't so much needing (or not needing) to know the spirit, it's that the license is self-contradictory and/or ambiguous, even before you bring spirit arguments into it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

woodelf

First Post
Ranger REG said:
While the argument is moot now, prior to UA, no one dared challenge the vague wording and tried to use the VP/WP system derived from Spycraft successfully. I believe the folk at Citizen Game wanted to use it -- albeit using different terms: Body and Vigor -- for Sidewinder: The Wild West Adventures but WotC denied them. Of course, rather than letting the court interpret that small print, they decided on an alternative health system.

It would be interesting had it gone to court -- at least it would or would not prove the flaw you pointed out -- but we'll never know now, won't we?

As i heard it, they weren't told "no" on using VP/WP for Sidewinder, they were told "we'd rather you didn't". Now, that may just be the way whoever says it talks. But it may also indicate what i suspect: they [WotC] knew they couldn't actually *stop* the reuse [legally speaking], whether due to the OGC/PI declarations in Spycraft, or something else. In short, i suspect if they'd just gone ahead and done it, rather than asking WotC's permission, there would've been no negative repurcussions. But, as you say, we'll never know. I know that i was sufficiently confident to put my money where my mouth is. To the degree that i caught myself trying to justify using VP/WP for one project where it really just didn't fit.
 

woodelf

First Post
Ranger REG said:
Hmm. What happens if the creator wishes to relinquish the copyright to a company? Such a law you suggested would expressly forbid that, even if that company will be run by his or her children (which is much like an asset in the estate can be passed down), who should get equal share in the profit of said copyright, rather than designate one (normally the firstborn).
I'm not yet convinced that that would be a bad thing. I could probably be persuaded at allowing transfer of copyright to others, including co-ownership. I'm *very* leery of allowing corporations to own copyrights, however. I can't see anything they couldn't do if they only licensed the materials, and i can see some bad that is avoided this way. In any case, i think if you limited the duration of copyright to the original creator's life (regardless of who it is transferred to), perhaps with a minimum of, say, 10 yrs (in case of late-in-life creations, and to discourage offing people for their ideas), i think it would be a very good thing.

Such a thing would also abolish any and all work-for-hire contracts.

Yep. and that's a great thing, IMHO.
 

kenjib

First Post
I think the life of the creator is too long for copyrights. That could potentially tie something up for 50, 60 years or more. By the time it becomes public domain it likely has lost all relevance, so even having copyright last only for the life of the creator still destroyes the positive feedback effect that opening things up to the public domain would provide. I think the original expiration of 7 years was fairly reasonable.

I also think it's very sad that Disney is the primary lobbyist for copyright extension and litigation considering that everything they did in the early days was pulled straight out of the public domain or otherwise copying other people's material, including Mickey Mouse who got his start in Steamboat Willie, which was a parody of Buster Keaton's Steamboat Bill, and pretty much all of their feature films. In the ideal world of today's Disney, a company like the early Disney would never have been able to exist.
 

woodelf

First Post
kenjib said:
I think the life of the creator is too long for copyrights. That could potentially tie something up for 50, 60 years or more. By the time it becomes public domain it likely has lost all relevance, so even having copyright last only for the life of the creator still destroyes the positive feedback effect that opening things up to the public domain would provide. I think the original expiration of 7 years was fairly reasonable.

I'm not suggesting it should be equal to the life of the creator. I'm suggesting it should be limited by the life of the creator. While it probably should be shorter (maybe noticably shorter), it definitely shouldn't be longer.

As for an actual number: i have very mixed ideas. On the one hand, things have accelerated in a lot of ways, so something on the order of a decade makes perfect sense. i think when copyright was first enacted, 7yrs was really too short, because books (in particular) had a viable life considerably longer than that. But, as the functional life of IP has gotten shorter, the law has made copyright protections longer. It's almost as if the lobbyists think that they can fight the trend towards shorter and shorter relevancy periods for new works by extending copyright--as if that will somehow magically boost long-term sales. On the other hand, clearly some works *are* still relevant a decade later, and i'm not sure that means the owner shouldn't still be benefitting from their sale. So maybe more like the 14yrs that it was for a while. I suppose the ideal would be based on market data: once per-year sales have fallen to less than, say, 1% of best-year sales, it gets, oh, i dunno, 3 more years of copyright protection. But i can't imagine successfully (and fairly) enforcing that. It might, however, encourage people to keep it on the market, at least, because if a book is out of print, it's sales [by the publisher] must, by definition, be zero, so it'd then lose copyright protection shortly after.
 

woodelf

First Post
Aaron2 said:
As the market leader, D&D gets a high percentage of RPG sales regardless of what is driving the market. At least that's what Ryan Dancy's research found. So, even if V:TM is was creating the buzz in the market, D&D sales increased.

Are you sure you've got this right? If so, do you have a source? My understanding is that that is a hypothesis, the definition of the Skaff Effect.

And, remember, the Skaff Effect is not some tried-and-true multi-decade old theorem of market economies--it's a theory proposed by someone at TSR/WotC, whose background and training i have no idea about (and to explain D&D's market dominance, IIRC). IOW, it comes from the same people who're telling us that the reason the market behaves the way it does is because of the Skaff Effect. And is as much effect as cause. It might be a self-fulfilling prophecy, or even just circular reasoning.

While it might be possible for a group to play multiple d20 games without ever buying a PHB, I just don't see it happening. Gamers tend to be collectors first.

I wouldn't say collectors first. Most play first, then buy a game or two because they're playing it, and then some become game collectors, some become multi-game-players, and some become both. Many only ever play a handful of RPGs, and may or may not buy rules for all of them. At least, that seems to be what WotC's research says, and that's one part that accords with my experiences and conversations with others. [Another part of the WotC survey that seems to get glossed over, and also accords with my experiences, is that those who only play one RPG drop out of the hobby sooner, and spend less money while they're in the hobby--the "best" customers play multiple games, though the modal number is between 2 and 3, IIRC.]

Also, while newbies tend to play what's offered, more experienced gamers tend to be somewhat fussy. I would never again voluntarily play D&D3[.5]E, now that i've gotten to know it pretty well. But there're at least half-a-dozen D20 System games i'd gladly play, given the opportunity. And if i were to run, say, Babylon 5 D20, i'd probably have players who don't own D&D books, and i certainly wouldn't expect them to buy a PH. With the easy availability of the D20SRD, i'd expect that's true of others, too. At least, i seriously doubt that a non-gamer fan of B5 who wants to try an RPG is gonna go buy both the B5 rulebook and the D&D rulebook. In short, if you don't like D&D, or just simply have no interest in it, you might very well play [several] other D20 System games without owning a D&D PH. And, as time goes by, this gets more and more likely. Especially as more licensed properties get turned into games, because these are the most likely to be advertised in places where non-D&D-players might find out about them.

As for 4e. I'd be suprised if it wasn't OGL since they would have a hard time getting players to migrate. WotC relies on 3rd parties to developed the stuff that they need but isn't cost effective to do themselves (adventures, questionable licenses etc).

While i agree with you, the point that they might decide a more controlled licensing scheme, rather than an un-policed royalty-free trademark license, is better for them is valid. Given the way they're going, with the ever-tightening nature of the D20STL, it is not unreasonable to suspect that.

I really hope this isn't the case. As OGL product stray further and further from D&D, I lose interest. I'm a huge REH fan but passed on Conan because they changed too much (esp. since I don't agree with most of the changes). Same with Judge Dredd. Unfortunately, we'll never know how well a d20 Conan would have sold if it was compatable and balanced for normal D&D play. I would have bought it.

Just remember that you are not the whole market. Frex, in general, the further it strays from D&D3[.5]E, the more likely i am to like it, IME. I rather dislike a lot of elements of D&D3[.5]E that aren't inherent to its D20 System underpinnings, so changes are often for the better. Thus, i prefer Spycraft and Arcana Unearthed vastly to the current D&D. And precisely because they are different, rather than despite the differences.

Of course, i'm not the whole market either. Rather, it's good to recognize that there are diversities. And don't forget the converse to your complaint: the people who wonder if such-n-such D20 System game would've done better if it hadn't slavishly stuck to D&D3E, mechanically. In this, as in many matters of taste, you just can't win: there'll always be people who think it's not different/original/whatever enough, and people who think it's too different/changed/whatever.
 

woodelf

First Post
The Sigil said:
Here's a spin from a publisher... DON'T ask me if you can use my OGC... I simply can't be bothered with "can I use this" and "can I use that" all day. I have more important things to do than worry about it. Just use it... that's why I gave you the stuff as OGC in the first place. I'm in the business of "publishing," not "licensing."

Now, I would love it if you give me a holler to let me know when you release a product that has my OGC in it, so I can see how my "child" has "grown up," but that's not mandatory, either.

Ditto. I don't understand people asking permission [for by-the-license open-content reuse], frankly--it's sorta weird when it happens. I sometimes want to say "what part of 'go ahead and use this' didn't you understand?" Actually, the more common questions i get that are of a similar nature, but equally bizarre to me are "do you mind if i link to your website?" [why would i put it up on the web if i didn't want people to read it? and why should i care how someone gets there to read it?] and "do you mind if we run one of your games at such-n-such con?" [why would i design an RPG and tell others about it, except so that they can play it? who would i sell or give away the rules, if not so that others can play it?]
 


herald

First Post
Dr. Awkward said:
Just curious to see if there's any new developments related to this thread.
I posted a question to the guy who handles the OGC stuff at WOTC and they said that they are not asking him to do it and that there is other stuff that they consider to be a concern. SO don't look for WOTC to do it.
 

Dogbrain

First Post
woodelf said:
Actually, the more common questions i get that are of a similar nature, but equally bizarre to me are "do you mind if i link to your website?"

There are people so monumentally stupid that they have actually sued over being linked. This has made it to court. The courts have ruled, unanimously, that there is absolutely and utterly no legal principle that would prevent or restrict linking to a web page/site/whatever. That did not stop some extremely short-sighted and foolish people from claiming some sort of fictional "moral constraint" upon who they would "permit" to link to their sites. The law, on the other hand, has made it quite plain that their claimes were absolutely groundless.

Sound familiar?
 

Remove ads

Top