D&D 5E Is the Wall of Faithless in 5e?

[doctorbadwolf]

What is the difference? Enlighten me. Asmodeus doesn’t get power from the faithless because that was not in 5E?

We don’t know that such is the case, there is no mention of it anywhere since 2e, and the entire consolingly has been shuffled around and blown up and glued back together sense then.

Acting like that 2e info is necessarily the case still doesn’t make sense.

What’s more, there was an edition in between where that whole dynamic was deleted. In order for it to be back to that, there would need to be some indication of such. The wall is back, but the source that says so doesn’t mention Asmodeus gaining power from the faithless.

Now feel free to show how I said anything like “ban all pre-5e books”, or whatever nonsense.

 

[Arnwolf666]

If you were a diamond seller (by which I mean the owner and/or operator of a diamond selling company), and weren’t doing anything to actively and meaningfully oppose the brutal evil of the diamond trade, yes. That would make you evil, in a world that has fairly well defined evil, and where that definition more or less boils down to “brings harm for selfish reasons”.

That’s what is going on here.

The gods need worshippers to be powerful and remain gods. They aren’t in any danger of dying from lack of worshippers, so I’m not going to hear any crap about them needing it to live. We are talking about extra food in the pantry, and more luxury food, not “enough calories to survive”, here.

So, do they help each other stay well fed? Not that I’ve ever seen. Do they help gods with declining worship stay healthy? Not “on camera” AFAIK.

But they do put an existential gun to the head of every single mortal in their sphere of power, and say, “you will worship one or more of us, or you will face utter oblivion.”

That is evil.

They could just as easily offer the souls of the faithful a choice from a list of jobs that will keep them out of trouble. They could guard and maintain the wall protecting the city of the dead. They could be empowered to collect stray souls. They could be employed to make the process of going through the Fugue Plane more efficient. They could do any number of things.

They could also reincarnate such souls, giving them another chance to find a path to faith. This option could be open to all souls, but more strongly encouraged for those who found no home in any faith.

They could even simply be made to choose a realm from a list. “You cannot be a stray soul. You will go one of these ways, and if you cannot choose Kelemvor will choose for you.”

They could even just do what nearly all other settings do and just...not have it be an issue at all. The souls that have no other home could simply stay in the fugue plane until they fade into whatever comes after the afterlife, like in Eberron, or they could dwell there eternal, as in Greek myth. (Hades isn’t a place of torment or punishment, but simply a neutral place where the dead dwell together for eternity)

Instead, if we take the setting at face value, the gods choose to punish those who don’t worship them with eons glued to a wall, and ultimately utter oblivion. Not actual bad people, mind you. Just the people who don’t respect the gods hard enough.

Are people that buy diamonds evil?

 

[Arnwolf666]

It just bugs me that they have an anti-polytheist polytheism. The "compulsory patron god" idea seems to owe more to modern liberal monotheism than to any historical polytheism. And I didn't like it when the Mielikki worshippers in my FR campaign were angsting about having to pray to Kelemvor to get a PC raised. They seemed trained by the cosmology to pray to the Forest Goddess for Raising, as if she were a monotheist deity.

I would agree. I would like to see more clerics and priest that worship all the gods or at least their pantheon. Now there were priests that worshipped one deity primarily within pantheon religions. However that was not the norm. And even that priest would still pray to other deities for their help in their area of specialty.

I would really like to see more priest archetypes that are built around how they actually functioned within communities.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Are people that buy diamonds evil?

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? I don’t play rhetorical games for no reason.

 

[Arnwolf666]

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? I don’t play rhetorical games for no reason.

I was just referring to the post about people that deal in the diamond business are evil. There power comes from their customers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was just referring to the post about people that deal in the diamond business are evil. There power comes from their customers.

I don’t care about weird tangential side treks to explore the outer edges of an analogy. What is your point?

Edit: also, I didn’t say that people in the diamond industry are evil. I specifically spoke to what is relevant, which is owners and operators (ie corporate executives) of businesses which sell diamonds, who do nothing to change the very, very, evil status quo of that industry.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I don’t care about weird tangential side treks to explore the outer edges of an analogy. What is your point?

That was my point. Just a question about something is evil based on the arguments in that post.

 

[Seramus]

If you were a diamond seller (by which I mean the owner and/or operator of a diamond selling company), and weren’t doing anything to actively and meaningfully oppose the brutal evil of the diamond trade, yes. That would make you evil, in a world that has fairly well defined evil, and where that definition more or less boils down to “brings harm for selfish reasons”.

Then we are all evil by your standard. I'm not sure what that re-definition accomplishes.

The gods need worshippers to be powerful and remain gods. They aren’t in any danger of dying from lack of worshippers, so I’m not going to hear any crap about them needing it to live.

No. They absolutely are in danger of dying due to lack of worshippers.

They could stay in the fugue plane until they fade into whatever comes after the afterlife, like in Eberron, or they could dwell there eternal, as in Greek myth. (Hades isn’t a place of torment or punishment, but simply a neutral place where the dead dwell together for eternity)

They do stay in the fugue plane until they fade into whatever comes after the after life. They just do it in a wall. Also the fields of Asphodel were pretty naughty word and very close to the wall. So close it was probably the inspiration.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Then we are all evil by your standard. I'm not sure what that re-definition accomplishes.

no. People who inarguably have the direct power to effect meaningful change to stop a great evil, and instead reap great profit form it while doing nothing to even mitigate the evil, are evil. By most people’s definitions, but certainly by DnD’s definition.

Did you perhaps miss how I was very specific in not including people who work at a jewelry store or even those who buy diamond rings? I made a very, very, specific statement. Generalizing it as you have is a direct contradiction to what I said.

No. They absolutely are in danger of dying due to lack of worshippers.

Really!? They have low numbers of worshippers? Worship is dwindling to the point where death by lack of worship is a reasonable concern? Maybe population numbers are way down? I must have missed this info in some new product about FR.

No. they aren’t in any actual danger. The vast majority of people worship the gods. They have plenty of worship.

They do stay in the fugue plane until they fade into whatever comes after the after life. They just do it in a wall. Also the fields of Asphodel were pretty naughty word and very close to the wall. So close it was probably the inspiration.

Lol I’m not going to get into a deep dive argument about the Greek underworld, so I’ll just “agree to disagree” on that one.

As for the fugue plane itself, the wall is a torment regardless of any argument to try and make it not seem like one. They’re bound into a wall.

As for real world afterlifes being bad...okay? Is FR real life now? When did that happen? I was pretty sure we could make our fantasy worlds whatever we wanted.

 

[Seramus]

no. People who inarguably have the direct power to effect meaningful change to stop a great evil, and instead reap great profit form it while doing nothing to even mitigate the evil, are evil. By most people’s definitions, but certainly by DnD’s definition.

Unless you are typing to me from a shack in Nigeria, you have direct power to effect meaningful change to stop great evils.

they aren’t in any actual danger. The vast majority of people worship the gods. They have plenty of worship.

You are forgetting about the vast numbers of devils, daemons, demons, and evil gods who are happy to storm the gates and wreck good aligned gods and their followers if they have insufficient power. The fact that someone else gets promoted to the spot doesn't stop the individual god from dying. And they absolutely have been killed before.

Lol I’m not going to get into a deep dive argument about the Greek underworld, so I’ll just “agree to disagree” on that one.

Cool. I'll leave this here for other readers then:

"The dead approach him in swarms, unable to speak unless animated by the blood of the animals he slays. Without blood they are witless, without activity, without pleasure and without future."