D&D 5E Is the Wall of Faithless in 5e?

[cmad1977]

Yeah this dishonesty you’re trying to use doesn’t make you look great, bud.

Trust me. None of you look good.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Ah, so, now Forgotten Realms has to bow to Planescape canon. Nope. Sorry. As far as Forgotten Realms is concerned, none of that applies. You are playing Forgotten Realms. There are no Powers. There are no Penitents. It's all Planescape stuff that need not apply.

Unless you want to argue that I MUST accept Planescape canon before I can play Forgotten Realms. In which case, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Of course we can all do it however we like. But the idea of a unified multiverse took shape about as soon as more than one published D&D world did, especially if you count crossover articles and such. This concept remained fairly constant all the way through the end of 2e. 3e abandoned that concept outside of the default Greyhawk setting. 4e reinterpreted the multiverse, and I'm not sure if the different settings shared the same one or not. 5e jumped back to the pre-3e D&D standard with a few innovations and development, just like there had been throughout pre-3e D&D.

Planescape cosmology was the default assumption for 2e. Spelljammer was too. You didn't have to use it, and you don't have to use it now, but the idea that all worlds exist within the same multiverse was the default assumption then, and it's a "default assumption" now.

I get it--you don't like it. Sometimes I'm the one in the same boat, arguing that the default assumptions are a load of crap and that I'm certainly not using them. But as a matter of commenting on the game as it is, we need to acknowledge how it is.

This is about personal issues and taste. Greenwood is not at your table. Change it up

As far as I know, Greenwood wasn't behind the wall. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not part of how he runs the Forgotten Realms.

We know from the actual novels that Kelemvor no longer punishes people for having no patron. As long as they have faith in general they go to their alignment plane assuming they pass judgement. But Myrkul did it that way for a long long time.

...

We don't know what exactly is involved in being faithless, but I assume that's part of the judgment. I guess it would be up to your personal game to determine if someone who is truly ignorant would be bound for the wall, I can't imagine Kelemvor doing that even in his more neutral incarnation.

The real sticking point is those who knowingly choose to be faithless.

Interesting! If this is the case, it seems like something that has been overlooked somewhat in the discussion.

That puts a bit of a different spin on it. See, the alignment planes aren't necessarily where you want to go, especially if you are an evil sort, or if you simply don't approve of the gods and the whole setup. This allows you an out--if you want to completely reject them, you can choose to not be part of it, escaping any eternal punishment or subservience, and instead just fade away into oblivion.

Maybe that's what the good deities tell themselves to help them deal with the situation without becoming evil.

Personally, I still think it is a jerk move. Maybe in my campaign, once we start hitting epic boons, the players will see if they can do something about it. One of the characters is from Faerun...and the four others are from different worlds. An awareness of the differences will likely come up in discussion, especially after they spend more time in the Outer Planes.

 

[Xenonnonex]

We know from the actual novels that Kelemvor no longer punishes people for having no patron. As long as they have faith in general they go to their alignment plane assuming they pass judgement. But Myrkul did it that way for a long long time.

Does reinstating the Wall of the Faithless make the novels pointless or the retcon pointless?

As expys of the Greek gods writ large being accused of incompetence due to humanity is really bizarre. All of the FR gods apart from Jergal act too human. They would all be considered incompetent.

 

[Seramus]

Does reinstating the Wall of the Faithless make the novels pointless or the retcon pointless?

FR has continuity between editions for the most part, so moving from one edition to the next is an actual period of time in history.

As expys of the Greek gods writ large being accused of incompetence due to humanity is really bizarre. All of the FR gods apart from Jergal act too human. They would all be considered incompetent.

Humorously, Cyric was accused of being too innocent after he went insane and spent a while gibbering instead of spreading strife. But yeah, there is not a lot of consistency in how the gods act and being accused of incompetence probably had more to do with lesser gods whining to the greater gods (and Cyric stirring up naughty word) than any genuine desire to maintain cosmic balance. At least, that’s my theory.

 

[cbwjm]

I actually like the wall of the faithless, I think it is an interesting part of the setting.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Unless you are typing to me from a shack in Nigeria, you have direct power to effect meaningful change to stop great evils.

Nah. This is a direct and seemingly intentional mischaracterization of the nature of my point.

It’s also a bit sketchy that your go to here is “a shack in Nigeria”. You know they got modern cities over there, yeah? A whole middle class and colleges and everything. You know that, right?

Anyway, if you wanna engage honestly with things I’ve said, that’d be great.

And if you think that a working class person has comparable power to effect the diamond trade as the ceo or owner of a diamond trading operation...I really don’t think a useful discussion is possible, here.

You are forgetting about the vast numbers of devils, daemons, demons, and evil gods who are happy to storm the gates and wreck good aligned gods and their followers if they have insufficient power. The fact that someone else gets promoted to the spot doesn't stop the individual god from dying. And they absolutely have been killed before.

What the hell are you even on about? Did I say gods can’t or don’t die?

Seriously, did you read any post I’ve made in this thread, much less the ones you’ve been quoting?

I said that the gods aren’t in danger of dying from a lack of worship. That they aren’t starving for worship. I was really clear.

Cool. I'll leave this here for other readers then:

"The dead approach him in swarms, unable to speak unless animated by the blood of the animals he slays. Without blood they are witless, without activity, without pleasure and without future."

Oof. Trying real hard to not reply to that in a super snarky manner. I done told ya I’m not gonna engage further on a tangential deep dive argument about Ancient Greek mythology. Drop it or stop replying to me altogether.

 

[Zardnaar]

The reason people use 2E and 3E stuff is 5E is bare in terms of law and 4E blew things up.

All we really know is the wall exists in 5E.

The planes are back to the great wheel a'la 2E and afaik they never contradicted how the wall worked.

 

[cbwjm]

If you don't use earlier edition fluff then I'm not sure you can say that souls would transition to a plane that matched their alignment. Like, I'm really not sure. I don't think I've read that in 5e but it could be mentioned somewhere.

 

[Hussar]

I thought this argument sounded familiar. Had a very similar one a while ago. Check out

D&D 5E - [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

I figured this could use its own thread. One of the things that has always got under my skin about FR was that if you didn't pick a patron deity for your character, your afterlife was to get stuck in a wall, regardless of your actions in life. The earliest mention I can find of this is the...

www.enworld.org

Lots of good thoughts there.

 

[Seramus]

stop replying to me altogether.

Hahah. Your wish is granted.