Is the Warlock the Best Class?

Zardnaar

Hero
Anyways the point is @Zardnaar - you always talk about the things your playing or seeing played like they are the best thing ever. That’s just not the case with the warlock.
Last thing I played was celestial Warlock.

It was good but it didn't do that much for me.

Newer players do lean more towards 5MW I've noticed so might contribute towards different pov on the forums.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
Last thing I played was celestial Warlock.

It was good but it didn't do that much for me.

Newer players do lean more towards 5MW I've noticed so might contribute towards different pov on the forums.
So what you are touting as the best class didn’t do much for you?
 

Zardnaar

Hero
So what you are touting as the best class didn’t do much for you?
Mechanically it was good, very versatile just wasn't what I wanted to play. Party was short of healing and Archer type along with a diplomat type.

Think I want to run a scout or bladesinger next.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
And realistically, if you want to do Eldritch Blast spam, just take 2 levels of warlock and then build out the rest with bard or sorcerer. You'll have EB spam plus a stronger chassis.

Don't go full warlock unless you're going to take advantage of the auto-scaling spells or have several invocations you want to use heavily.
Or, you know, have a character concept in mind vs the pile-o-stats/powers mentality....
 

ccs

39th lv DM
Everyone knew about those things very early. The only ones that denied them were the optimization is bad crowd
Optimization isn't bad.
It just shouldn't be touted as the best/only/default way to play a class. Especially to new players as it squashes creativity.
It's also not worth getting all fussed about as the DM. You don't have to try & "fix" it ("OMG! Bless + GWM +..... = OP! How can I nerf it???). As the DM you just need to build more challenging encounters.
 

Todd Roybark

Villager
Any class with CHA main attribute has an advantage over INT, just based off skill synergies.

Pact of Chain is pathetic.

The Book of Shadows is initially worse than a dip into Sorc, and Eldritch Blast is arguably the best cantrip, and a no brainer option (which you already have). Cost of 1 Invocation to be the Ritual Magic master....nice but just a bit better than taking Ritual Magic feat (for Wiz). I would argue if one wanted to play the ‘Master of Ritual Magick ‘ archetype a Wizard Diviner with Ritual Magic Feat for Cleric is easier to conceptualize....though the warlock has more HP.

Pact of the Blade/ Hexblade is strong. The EB no save Invocations ( CHA modifier to DMG, Pushing /Pulling etc) are super strong.

The Warlock is a super strong class to multi-class in, and based off the text of the PHB as written helps the spell casting of Divine Casters through quick access to 5th level spells
(Sage Advice Nerf notwithstanding ).

This is a weakness IMHO, post 17th level there is little reason to stay in the class.
Pal/locks are Legion.

I wish the class was a bit more Binder-esque ala Tome of Magic 3.5 E
 

Ath-kethin

Explorer
Warlocks are easily my favorite class in 5e, so I vote YES, they are the best.

We also don't use the optional multiclass rules at my table, so class choice has a bit more impact and things stay a little more balanced I think.

I could never justify taking Eldritch blast as a cantrip; it just seems too one-dimensional for me. I had a player in a Pimeval Thule campaign I ran play a warlock of Shub-Niggurath, though, and conceptualized their EB as thorny branches erupting from the target's body (no mechanical changes to the spell).

That minor change made one hell of an impact on character development and NPC attitudes and was absolutely amazing.
 

Todd Roybark

Villager
ccs...I agree with you whole heartedly, however One Can Take Find Familar with the Pact of the Tome and research an Imp or other expanded Familiar option, and still learn all other Ritual Magic spells ( level dependent of course)....which is just a more useful build, variety wise, and not at all DPS related.

Thematically Pact of the Chain is great, implementation- wise, it is sub-par to the other options.

If I had to choose between driving a car w/o A/C thru Death Valley versus driving a car with A/C...I am choosing the A/C.....even if I did not plan to turn it on.

Of course if you and your group is happy with your character, that is all that matters.
 

TwoSix

Lover of things you hate
Or, you know, have a character concept in mind vs the pile-o-stats/powers mentality....
Ugg, why? Concept is what you develop after you know how you want the character to play mechanically.
 

GlassJaw

Explorer
For me, the Bard, Warlock, and Wizard are the best designed classes. Druid is close too.

They aren't necessarily the most powerful (the "power" of all the classes is close enough for me) or offer a playstyle that everyone will enjoy. But each of those classes offers choices for customization and can contribute solidly in 2 if not all 3 pillars consistently.

I've seen multiple warlocks and wizards in play and I'm playing a bard now. They are always in the mix both in and out of combat and each of those characters has been unique in how they were played. That's my benchmark when I'm evaluating a class or designing myself (hence my issues with the fighter).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Ugg, why? Concept is what you develop after you know how you want the character to play mechanically.
Huh wait concept first (can include some play elements) then find awesome mechanics optimised to back that... and in the middle compromise one way or an other then grumble about that
 

TwoSix

Lover of things you hate
Huh wait concept first (can include some play elements) then find awesome mechanics optimised to back that... and in the middle compromise one way or an other then grumble about that
I don't actually have any real problem with people building concept first. I just find posts of "I always start with a concept first and don't care about mechanics because I'm not some munchkin" to be fairly tiresome.
 

Cap'n Kobold

Adventurer
ccs...I agree with you whole heartedly, however One Can Take Find Familar with the Pact of the Tome and research an Imp or other expanded Familiar option, and still learn all other Ritual Magic spells ( level dependent of course)....which is just a more useful build, variety wise, and not at all DPS related.
Is the Expanded Familiar option that you're talking about homebrew or from the DM'sGuild?

Getting an Imp familiar is not something you can usually do with the Find Familiar spell.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
Is the Expanded Familiar option that you're talking about homebrew or from the DM'sGuild?

Getting an Imp familiar is not something you can usually do with the Find Familiar spell.
In the MM there are some creatures with notes on how ggry can become familiars without Find Familiar and those rules have been referenced quite a few times in official comments about familiars.

Note - those options do not include the Find Familiar spell features either do if it dies, it's dead, not just time for recsdt and the telepathy might not be there either. Consult the critter rules for specifics - some share their resistances.
 

Cap'n Kobold

Adventurer
In the MM there are some creatures with notes on how ggry can become familiars without Find Familiar and those rules have been referenced quite a few times in official comments about familiars.

Note - those options do not include the Find Familiar spell features either do if it dies, it's dead, not just time for recsdt and the telepathy might not be there either. Consult the critter rules for specifics - some share their resistances.
I'm aware of those, but that is essentially trying to persuade an NPC (assuming the DM introduces them at all) to be your friend, or make a deal with it.
That doesn't seem to be what the post I quoted was talking about. - They seem to be regarding having access to an Imp familiar as automatic - without being a Chain Warlock, as a reason why chain warlocks are not as good.
 

Dausuul

Legend
ccs...I agree with you whole heartedly, however One Can Take Find Familar with the Pact of the Tome and research an Imp or other expanded Familiar option...
Say what? How do you plan to "research" that? I mean, if you can talk the DM into letting you have it, more power to ya, but it'd take some pretty fast talking for a player to convince me to give them the benefits of Pact of the Chain for free after they went Tome. You want the imp, you take the Chain. Otherwise you get an owl like everybody else.

And the imp is a pretty sweet familiar. Wings plus invisibility at will makes it an incredible scout, and it has hands and human-level intelligence. It can even defeat that scourge of scouting pets, the dreaded Closed Door. It doesn't do much for you in combat, but then neither does Pact of the Tome. Both are utility choices.
 

Ogre Mage

Explorer
I consider the warlock to be the best class from a roleplaying standpoint. You have a connection to a higher power and while it can be about devotion like it is with a cleric, it doesn't have to be. Maybe the pact was strictly a business contract drawn up between frenemies with maneuvering on both sides. Maybe you are drawing power from an entity against its will. Maybe the entity gave you power because it is infatuated with you. Maybe there is a bloodline connection between the entity and you that you cannot break. Maybe you didn't know what you were doing and wound up in the pact by mistake. Or maybe you were so desperate for power you were willing to do anything. The roleplaying possibilities are almost endless. You will need a great GM, a long-running campaign and a well thought-out warlock character concept to capitalize on the potential.
 

Pauln6

Explorer
I think what would be nice would be invocations that could enhance cantrips other than eldritch blast, based on the nature of your pact. So, maybe a fey Pact of the Tome Warlock could be able to use vicious mockery to draw enemies in or something similar.
 

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