Is there a book of Epic Spells?

[Treebore]

Thats right, I save those spells for when I think the creature may be going down and hope his 600 to 1,000 HP is lowered enough for me to effect him, if I can overcome his SR 30, which is pretty much a 50/50 chance for me, in the first place. If anyone can tell me where the rules say your caster level can go above 20 for purposes of penetrating SR, and to do Dispel Magics, please let me know. The DM will allow Spell Penetration feats to take it above 20, but thats it. I can be 50th level and still only get +20 to overcome SR, and I can't find rules that clearly say otherwise.

 

[jmucchiello]

Thats right, I save those spells for when I think the creature may be going down and hope his 600 to 1,000 HP is lowered enough for me to effect him, if I can overcome his SR 30, which is pretty much a 50/50 chance for me, in the first place. If anyone can tell me where the rules say your caster level can go above 20 for purposes of penetrating SR, and to do Dispel Magics, please let me know. The DM will allow Spell Penetration feats to take it above 20, but thats it. I can be 50th level and still only get +20 to overcome SR, and I can't find rules that clearly say otherwise.

Your DM has made a house rule (or is mistaken). Where does it say it cannot go above 20?

From the SRD: Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.
In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

From the SRD: Spell Resistance (Magic Overview.rtf)
Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.

From the SRD: Epic Basics (Emphasis added)
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level.
• For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

OTOH, Dispel Magic is capped at +10: You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature.
This is why Greater Dispel Magic exists: This spell functions like dispel magic, except that the maximum caster level on your dispel check is +20 instead of +10.

I suspect your DM is using this as the basis for limiting Spell Resistance but that does not make sense and is not supported by the rules. Any one of the quoted pasages above could say (maximum +20) and none of them do. The Epic Handbook is full of monsters with SR in the 40s, 50s and higher. That makes no sense if SR checks are limited to a +20 bonus. If that were the intention, why have SR above 41?

 

[Psion]

Edit: Disregard, that's what I get for reading half a post...

 

[Treebore]

Yes, he is using the Greater Dispel as his reason for limiting it to +20. However, tonight he threw a creature with a SR of 46. I argued that the creature proves I am supposed to get my full CL to overcome it. I could tell he almost agreed. I think he will after he has time to think about it.

Epic level is really messed up. If you want to see more of my complaints read the HP gap between old D&D and 3E thread. I start complaining about Epic problems in post #30.

 

[ashockney]

My Warlock is in the Warcraft setting, which means he took 4 prohibited schools to get 2 bonus conjuration spells/level. He has evocation, abjuration, and alteration still available to him, plus the universals, of course. I'll see how much the ranged touch attacks work. What insta-death spells? You mean Power word Kill against monsters/creatures with +30 Fortitude saves versus my DC 27 spells? If I meta-magic it up to 12th level he still might fail on a 1.

OK, now that puts a new twist on things. If your access is down to Evo, Abj, Alt, and Con/Sum, you're really going to be hamstrung. Ouch! Consider the implications of the character build, sacrificing versatility to get access to more resources. As is evident to you by now, I'm sure, you've got no shortage of resources available to you in Epic, the issue is having the RIGHT resource at the right time, and knowing the difference. You may want to consider checking out the character "retooling" guidelines found in the new PHBII, to switch your WoW Warlock to a Wizard with a school specialization in Necromancy.

Ranged touch will help, as it provides you with some good no save options. Your DC27 insta kills will work fine against foes with Fort +15's. There will be some, the key is in figuring out the key of when to use them (thus, the emphasis on Knowledge skills and divinations in my campaign). My arcane caster routinely would choose to spend "actions" figuring out what the right thing to use would be, instead of blasting away.

Also, it should be noted that villians become exponentially more challenging each couple of levels, and your summoned creatures aren't really keeping pace. You can maximize a summon to get five of your toughest creature, but that thing still has to survive/be effective. Similiar to the WoW Necro is the EQ Necromancer. I've found the EQ rpg to be a terrific resource for me (published by Sword and Sorcery). They have examples in that game of 10th - 15th level spells that allow you to augment your pet, summon more powerful skeletons, debuff opponents (for your pet to be more effective), debuff opponents (to make your pet last longer), and DoT's that bypass resistances and help to improve you/your pets DPS.

 

[jmucchiello]

Yes, he is using the Greater Dispel as his reason for limiting it to +20. However, tonight he threw a creature with a SR of 46. I argued that the creature proves I am supposed to get my full CL to overcome it. I could tell he almost agreed. I think he will after he has time to think about it.

I would still ask him to show you where it says caster level checks are limited. Greater Dispel is an example of a caster level check, not a definitive source on caster level checks. I would think if overcoming SR was limited, it would say so in at least one of the various location SR is discussed.

(And please, I ask that no one turn this into a discussion about whether players should argue rules with the DM. That is not the point of this thread.)

 

[hamishspence]

Epic spells in various sources: annoying bugs

When I read some of these sources I notice some of the epic spells don't use the correct calculations. Or apply the Permanent(5 times DC) factor at the wrong point. Proctiv's Move Mountain (from PGTF) is an especial offender

Simplest way to solve overly high DC to cast spells (over 300 for Dire Winter) is to cut the area of effect to something usable.

 

[Treebore]

OK, now that puts a new twist on things. If your access is down to Evo, Abj, Alt, and Con/Sum, you're really going to be hamstrung. Ouch! Consider the implications of the character build, sacrificing versatility to get access to more resources. As is evident to you by now, I'm sure, you've got no shortage of resources available to you in Epic, the issue is having the RIGHT resource at the right time, and knowing the difference. You may want to consider checking out the character "retooling" guidelines found in the new PHBII, to switch your WoW Warlock to a Wizard with a school specialization in Necromancy.

Ranged touch will help, as it provides you with some good no save options. Your DC27 insta kills will work fine against foes with Fort +15's. There will be some, the key is in figuring out the key of when to use them (thus, the emphasis on Knowledge skills and divinations in my campaign). My arcane caster routinely would choose to spend "actions" figuring out what the right thing to use would be, instead of blasting away.

Also, it should be noted that villians become exponentially more challenging each couple of levels, and your summoned creatures aren't really keeping pace. You can maximize a summon to get five of your toughest creature, but that thing still has to survive/be effective. Similiar to the WoW Necro is the EQ Necromancer. I've found the EQ rpg to be a terrific resource for me (published by Sword and Sorcery). They have examples in that game of 10th - 15th level spells that allow you to augment your pet, summon more powerful skeletons, debuff opponents (for your pet to be more effective), debuff opponents (to make your pet last longer), and DoT's that bypass resistances and help to improve you/your pets DPS.

Your definitely on to some of the problems. We haven't bought the PH 2 yet, even without it the DM has been cool about changing feats and such (for an example he agreed that when I took the Epic Inititive feat that it was bull to have the old Improved Initiative become a waste, so he let me use it to get a different feat), and maybe when I let him know the PH would let me change forbidden schools he'll allow that too.

It looks like he may allow me to use my full caster level to overcome SR's, so if that happens that will make things significantly better for my caster. He got ticked off last night, he forgot my biggest power as a warlock was to turn/rebuke/command demons and devils like a cleric of the same level as my casting level. I guess he forgot because I use it so rarely, but anyways, he threw these nasty demons at us with 54 HD and I told him I was going to turn it. The shocked "HUH!" look on his face was priceless! Then when I rolled high enough to successfully turn (I couldn't rebuke or command due to level limits) he got really disgusted. Then the divine cleric/paladin boy remembered he could effect evil outsiders too (Warcraft Paladin Warrior ability), he turned too. Then I reminded him that he has that feat that allows him to outright destroy creatures he turns once per day.

Man! The DM's face was priceless! I felt his pain, though, since I DM a lot too. A totally kick butt encounter totally routed because he forgot one of the many powers we have. It was nice for us, though. It felt good to handily defeat something at Epic Level, finally!

Another frustration he had earlier in the night was a magically enchanted'trapped/warded door. He forgot about the 3rd dimension of reality when he designed it, so I easily went around by using my earthglide ability (remember, I am an Earth Elemental Savant as well, and now have the subtype/abilities). He was so disgusted once again.

I mean to be fair, I can understand his frustration, we have so many resources, so many abilities, it is hard as heck to take them all into account when he comes up with the encounters. Even a written list doesn't fix everything. The list is so long that you miss things, and that one thing you missed is what will turn the encounter into a cake walk.

I'd be willing to DM into low epic, but I sure wouldn't want to go beyond 30th, just too many headaches for it to be fun enough to keep DMing. I have seen "the look" in the DM's eyes several times. You could tell he just wanted to throw the books across the room and say, "The heck with this campaign! I'm sick of it!". He's sticking with it , though. Especially since he talked us into playing into the Epic levels. We would be perfectly happy playing other characters, and he knows that. Well, maybe the Healer/Paladin Warrior would like to keep going, but he would reluctantly agree to start over again.

Frankly, I just see this Epic game as more reasons why I'm glad I don't DM 3e anymore. Way too much stuff to keep track of. My DMing brain would burn out in short order.