D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Neither of these claims hold water. A 4e fighter can trip every bit as well as a 2e fighter without using any powers at all. It's simply that when they're fresh, practiced, and prepared they may be able to get extra edges.

Both claims hold water extensively. The 4E fighter clearly can't trip as well as a 2E fighter, or even another 4E fighter that hasn't tried to trip yet. Because of some metagame reason that's due to...fatigue? No, he can still do everything else just fine. The enemy's expecting that now? No, he still can't trip very well against enemies that were just summoned. Bad luck? No, that doesn't explain why he's now sucking so consistently at it. Dissociation in action.

As for your ability to attempt to do anything, no that isn't a central tenet of RPGs either. It utterly destroys certain genres if superheroes start executing supervillains. Which means that it's something only a griefer or someone trying to deconstruct the genre would do. So there's no need to enable that by the rules of a non-deconstructive game. Quite the reverse.

It is the central tenet of playing an RPG character. If something destroys a genre, then so what? The game goes on and the players adapt to it; it turns out their character is a "griefer" or something else now. Or the game tone changes to accomodate the grittier tone of heroes who kill villains, and the in-game fallout from that. Or any of a thousand other things that are both viable and fun...certainly moreso than "No, you don't kill the bad guy, because...stuff."
 

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Both claims hold water extensively. The 4E fighter clearly can't trip as well as a 2E fighter, or even another 4E fighter that hasn't tried to trip yet.

Incorrect mechanically on almost all counts. The only person the 4e fighter is worse at tripping then is a fresh specialised trip fighter.

No, that doesn't explain why he's now sucking so consistently at it.

He doesn't suck. He's average. World of difference.

It is the central tenet of playing an RPG character. If something destroys a genre, then so what?

So you've just destroyed the roles you were meant to be playing. You've griefed the party and the DM as badly as the most obnoxious of kender.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Gladly. I'm saying the problem is that dissociated mechanics impinge on a character's ability to attempt to do anything, which is the central tenant of playing a role-playing game. That's literally what I've been saying is the problem.
It's a little over the top to claim authority to define /the central tenant to RPGs/, especially one as odd as 'character's ability to attempt anything.' You'd think something relating to RP or, perhaps even playing a Game, might be a better candidate.

I also don't see how 'dissociation' does that anymore than association does. Unless you're using yet another novel definition?

Because of some metagame reason that's due to...fatigue? No, he can still do everything else just fine. The enemy's expecting that now? No, he still can't trip very well against enemies that were just summoned. Bad luck? No, that doesn't explain why he's now sucking so consistently at it. Dissociation in action.
All you're doing here is making a realism argument against limited-use powers and labeling it 'dissociation.' The power is associated, you just reject the association as unrealistic.

That's an extremely weak argument in reference to a Fantasy RPG, since 'the central tenet' (see how lame it sounds when the person pontificating isn't playing to your confirmation bias?) of an FRPG is to be unrealistic.
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
Neither of these claims hold water. A 4e fighter can trip every bit as well as a 2e fighter without using any powers at all. It's simply that when they're fresh, practiced, and prepared they may be able to get extra edges.

I'm uncertain this is true. There were a bunch of different ways to trip in 2e. The cleanest was standard to-hit roll followed by the defender rolling a d20 vs. Dexterity with modifiers for moving and awareness. It is quite difficult to compare the efficiency of the subsystems in 2e and 4e.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Incorrect mechanically on almost all counts. The only person the 4e fighter is worse at tripping then is a fresh specialised trip fighter.

Untrue; the above examples were mechanically correct on exactly all counts. The 4E fighter is worse than the 2E fighter, and another 4E fighter that hasn't tried to trip, and there's no in-game reason why that's so (that can stand up to scrutiny).

He doesn't suck. He's average. World of difference.

The only difference is semantic. He's still demonstrably worse for no reason.

So you've just destroyed the roles you were meant to be playing. You've griefed the party and the DM as badly as the most obnoxious of kender.

Actually he's embracing the role he created for the character when he made him. He's thus presented the party and the GM with new opportunities that come from a fresh direction for the game, to everyone's enjoyment.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
It's a little over the top to claim authority to define /the central tenant to RPGs/, especially one as odd as 'character's ability to attempt anything.' You'd think something relating to RP or, perhaps even playing a Game, might be a better candidate.

It's not at all over the top, nor is it my definition; it's Jon Peterson's, from his book. Likewise, you can role-play your bishop in a game of chess or your character in Clue(do). You can play a game of checkers. Neither are RPGs. Only in an RPG can anything be attempted by the player's character.

I also don't see how 'dissociation' does that anymore than association does. Unless you're using yet another novel definition?

See above. Dissociation removes that agency to try anything, because it throws arbitrary restrictions on what the character can do. That said, I'm glad you've found the definition to be novel.
 

Actually he's embracing the role he created for the character when he made him. He's thus presented the party and the GM with new opportunities that come from a fresh direction for the game, to everyone's enjoyment.

"He's just playing his character."

Right.

Is there a cliffnotes summary of the pages since I last posted on this thread?

An edition war broke out. Nothing interesting.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm uncertain this is true. There were a bunch of different ways to trip in 2e. The cleanest was standard to-hit roll followed by the defender rolling a d20 vs. Dexterity with modifiers for moving and awareness. It is quite difficult to compare the efficiency of the subsystems in 2e and 4e.
Where there. I remember it seemed like a new thing in 3e. Then again, I skipped C&T. Maybe it was in there. I've heard a lot of 3e-isms were.

In any case 'just as good' is hard to quantify across systems. 2e (pre-C&T, say) and 4e would both have used some sort of improvised mechanic to trip, plus 4e had powers that knocked prone. 3e had very specific rules on tripping and being better at tripping (and they led to some rather outre builds that did some rather silly things in combat). You could tell that a character with Improved Trip in 3e or a power that made targets prone in 4e was 'better' at tripping than one without, but across game? Is the 3e fighter better because he can Trip every attack of every round? Is the 4e character better because he can knock a flying dragon prone?

See above. Dissociation removes that agency to try anything, because it throws arbitrary restrictions on what the character can do. That said, I'm glad you've found the definition to be novel.
That is indeed, an atypical definition. Placing restrictions on what a character can do is dissociative? So Vancian magic systems are dissociative? Or are they merely in violation of this central tenet in a different way?

Exactly right. Certainly better than "you can't do that because the rules say you can't."
The rules say you can't do a lot of things. They're rules. 3e trained-only skills? There are things you can't do. AD&D weapon & armor proscriptions? Things you can't do. Vancian magic? Clerical healing niche protection? 3e 'Trapfinding.'

Are you advocating for something like the old MSH, where spiderman /might/ lift Mt. Everest, 'some of the time?' with enough shifts?


I actually agree with the sentiment to a small degree: rules are better when they define what you can do, rather than what you can't (and it can be tricky assuring that the former doesn't imply the latter). Expanding or open-ended skill lists, for instance, suffer terribly from creating incompetence in characters who lack a given skill. 4e using a short, fixed skill list and simply dividing up all tasks among those skills, or 5e dividing all tasks among 6 stats are examples of avoiding that. (OTOH, 13A open-ended backgrounds and 5e open-to-expansion proficiencies tend the other way a bit.) Hero's another great example of both. It's effects-based powers system leaves the game wide open to characters doing anything the player can imagine, while it's long skill list and several open-ended skills make broadly-skilled characters problematic, and leave other characters with unexpected blind spots ("But, I'm a scientist, I have 14- physics" "Ah, but you don't have KS: Scalar Field Dark Matter!"). In 4e, the infamous p42, leaves an out that prevents powers from defining what you can't do. So you end up with things you definitively /can/ do (powers, feats, features, skills) - and things you can't /definitively/ do, but might be able to attempt (p42).

In practice, IMX, most players are happy enough with the range and number of things a 4e character definitively /can/ do to be disappointed in the things he can't /definitively/ do. Those that aren't stretch things - either with the formal process in p42, or by telling the DM what they're trying, requiring some sort of ruling, just as D&D has always done (just not nearly as often, and not for basic things characters try all the time).
 
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