D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

[tomBitonti]

Sure. If I were to push a little bit into the psychology of it, I'd ask maybe something like "Okay, what happens at the table when the description is radially divergent from the effect? What if D&D had an ability whose description was Divine energy flows into your wounds, knitting tissue and bone and flesh, while a cooling breeze washes over you, and it did 3d10 damage and forced you to save or die?...what would that ruin, if you played a game where that happened?"

In digging into the thing it wrecks, I might get a sense of what you're actively looking for, and I could know if it fits into one of the typical aesthetics and then probably be able to figure out how that game could be better designed to nail the aesthetics you're actually looking for.

Well, with that example, you would get blank stares, maybe a few "huh" or "that's stupid".

If the Gm continued with the description and effect, a couple of us would look for explanations: have we been tuned into undead? Was the spell an illusion?

But, the example is strange: The description describes healing and the consequence describes harm. I don't see a need to dig very deeply for the answer. Words are being used in a way which is not consistent with their everyday meaning.

Also, games don't often detail specific healing or damage effects to this degree. The space of the effect is shallow and uninteresting.

Going back to CAGI, if the effect were described as a physical pull (a variation of stomp[\i], say), then that is something to work with: Dwarven stability should apply. Flying won't help. Being heavy might.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Remathilis]

If on the other hand we have a setting which magic actually permeates, meaning that fighters are larger than life at fighting, with magic flowing through their bodies, and fighters are Beowulf, Cuchulain, Gilgamesh, the Knights of the Round Table, Achiles, Heracles, Jason, Odysseus, the Outlaws of the Water Margin, Orlando Furioso, or just about all the myths that modern fantasy is based on then the emotional reality of the universe is maintained. Everyone is larger than life and whereas the magic flowing through the wizard gets externally expressed, the magic flowing through the fighter gets expressed by making them more awesome at what they do to the point of literally holding the world up or cutting the tops off mountains. Gandalf works in Lord of the Rings because there is only one of him and he's an NPC. With dozens upon of wizards vastly superior to Gandalf around and fighters who can't keep up with Strider, I start wondering why Aragorn is meant to be pivotal rather than a puppet.

You're examples all have one thing in common: nearly all of them were favored by (if not outright partially) gods. Gilgamesh is a demi-god, so are Heracles and Cuchulain. Jason and Odysseus are watched over by the gods (and far more remotely, Arthur and his knights are watched over by the Christian God). Orlando was a PALADIN of Charlemagne. Arthur and Beowulf were kings, and thus appointed to their position by divine right; God literally made them better than mortal ken so they would become kings. (Aragon fits this bill as well, his own Dunedain blood makes him far more than a normal man).

These are not the model of the 4e fighter unless every 4e fighter can claim the blood of Gods or Kings in their veins. Their superhuman abilities are literally because they are born better than men. That is a fine class idea (and indeed, the epic hero is an older-than-dirt fantasy trope) but if THAT is the inspiration for the 4e martial power source, where does that but truly mundane heroes like Robin of Locksley?

 

[Neonchameleon]

You're examples all have one thing in common: nearly all of them were favored by (if not outright partially) gods. Gilgamesh is a demi-god, so are Heracles and Cuchulain. Jason and Odysseus are watched over by the gods (and far more remotely, Arthur and his knights are watched over by the Christian God). Orlando was a PALADIN of Charlemagne. Arthur and Beowulf were kings, and thus appointed to their position by divine right; God literally made them better than mortal ken so they would become kings. (Aragon fits this bill as well, his own Dunedain blood makes him far more than a normal man).

These are not the model of the 4e fighter unless every 4e fighter can claim the blood of Gods or Kings in their veins. Their superhuman abilities are literally because they are born better than men. That is a fine class idea (and indeed, the epic hero is an older-than-dirt fantasy trope) but if THAT is the inspiration for the 4e martial power source, where does that but truly mundane heroes like Robin of Locksley?

First, how they got there is irrelevant. They are there.

Second, have you ever counted how many people in the Greek myths are part-deity? It's easier to count the protagonists that don't at least claim to be part deity. I'm struggling to think of any.

Third, Robin of Locksley could split an arrow down the middle in most tellings of the myth. And was ridiculously fast at shooting. If you're accurate enough to split an arrow down the middle (a target smaller than an eyeball) you can keep up with anyone who can't catch arrows or shrug them off. (Which admittedly does not include everyone in The Water Margin).

Fourth, Gandalf? Powerful Angel (technically Maiar). Circe? Goddess. Merlin? Supernatural (child without a father). Medea? Niece of Circe and quarter god. Morgana le Fay? What do you think Le Fay means? (Probably water spirit in her case). Morgause? Morgana's sister.

I can think of more than a few mythological heroes that weren't part God, starting with Orlando and Robin Hood. I'm struggling to think of any mages that weren't spirit or divine. Yet mysteriously this issue is never even raised when it comes to spellcasters despite being rooted far, far deeper in the mythology for them. If you're going to say that because of mythological roots most fighters should be part-God or divinely empowered then so should every single wizard. Even where you have mundane births and no direct empowerment for the martial heroes (as in the Arthurian cycle for many of them) the wizards are all part something.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Morgana le Fay? What do you think Le Fay means? (Probably water spirit in her case).

It means "of the Fey." In her case, she's so-named because that's the people she sided with when she betrayed Arthur; except for her ability to use magic, she's pure mortal. Because in order for her to be part spirit, then Arthur would also have to be part spirit... being as he is her brother.

 

[TwoSix]

Not only that... and just like the last six years... no one in this thread has listened to the other person and just accepted that their worldview is just as valid, and that they just don't share it.

Hey now, I thought I was pretty accommodating.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It means "of the Fey." In her case, she's so-named because that's the people she sided with when she betrayed Arthur; except for her ability to use magic, she's pure mortal. Because in order for her to be part spirit, then Arthur would also have to be part spirit... being as he is her brother.

You're getting your myths confused - in specific Arthur was Morgause's half-brother in the myths. In particular how Arthur came to be conceived; Uther Pendragon disguised himself as Gorlois of Tintagel who was married to Igraine and father of Morgana and Morgause.

Them being half-siblings only shows with Geoffrey of Monmouth. In no version of the Arthurian stories I am aware of is Uther Pendragon the father of Morgana. And in every version I am aware of he's Arthur's father.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

You're getting your myths confused - in specific Arthur was Morgause's half-brother in the myths. In particular how Arthur came to be conceived; Uther Pendragon disguised himself as Gorlois of Tintagel who was married to Igraine and father of Morgana and Morgause.

Them being half-siblings only shows with Geoffrey of Monmouth. In no version of the Arthurian stories I am aware of is Uther Pendragon the father of Morgana. And in every version I am aware of he's Arthur's father.

In Erec and Enide by Chrétien de Troyes, it is mentioned that Arthur got a healing balm from his sister and her name is given as Morgan. She isn't portrayed as his half-sister until the Vulgate Cycle, which was written in the following century. It's also around then that she started to be portrayed not as one of Arthur's confidants and loyal subjects, but as an enemy to him; original portrayals have her firmly on his side when she's mentioned at all.

 

[Lalato]

Hey now, I thought I was pretty accommodating.

That'll do, donkey. That'll do.

 

[Tony Vargas]

These are not the model of the 4e fighter unless every 4e fighter can claim the blood of Gods or Kings in their veins.

The Demigod and Legendary Sovereign Epic Destinies are 100% open to fighters.

So maybe not /every/ fighter can claim - but /any/ fighter could turn out to be...



.... heh ... another 'Schrodinger's _________ .

 

[Neonchameleon]

In Erec and Enide by Chrétien de Troyes, it is mentioned that Arthur got a healing balm from his sister and her name is given as Morgan. She isn't portrayed as his half-sister until the Vulgate Cycle, which was written in the following century. It's also around then that she started to be portrayed not as one of Arthur's confidants and loyal subjects, but as an enemy to him; original portrayals have her firmly on his side when she's mentioned at all.

And now we're getting into there being different sources that got retconned together, and I'm going with an older one. Erec et Enide was 1170 - Geoffrey of Monmouth died in 1155, and Morgana appears in his Vita Merlini as one of the nine magical Queen sisters of Avalon and is not mentioned as being related to Arthur at all so far as I am aware. She was magical from the start - and a healer. Subsequently in Erec et Enide a Morgan shows up who was named as Arthur's sister and healer, although with a slightly different role to the Queen of Avalon. It's my personal belief here that these actually started out as two different characters (ever tried tracing family trees in comics? If they have the same last name they must be related however weird that ends up being). There's also another Morgan wandering around the earliest myths; Morgan Tud, Arthur's chief healer but he drops out of the myths for being far too confusing. And after that we're into the Vulgate Cycle where I think we agree.